Second Cycle Advice
Background:
6'5 292lbs
BF% unknown: I use to weigh 375 without ever lifting a pound in high school and have a significant amount of loose skin. So I’ve come a long way.
Lifting experience: 13 years
-Mostly powerlifting/powerbuilding
First cycle: 7 months ago
Test E 500 Weeks 1 - 12
Dbol 30mg Weeks 1 – 4 (I know It should have been Test E only, I wanted the kick starter)
PCT Nolva 40/40/20/20 18 days after last pin
AI: Aromasin (Never had to use it). Read different things on when and how often to use this. I never had any symptoms of any gyno and my water retention was mild at best.
Other Supplements(Brands excluded)
-Preworkout
-BCAA intraworkout
-Post workout protein(50g)
-Milk Thistle
-Creatine
Side effects: Mild lethargy first couple of weeks. Mild loss of libido during PCT. No acne/gyno.
Labs: Don't have results anymore but they were fine
Results:
General: never felt so good in my whole life. Confidence, alpha feeling, never tired, never sore, mental focus.... all amazing
Weight 290 -> 303 (Back down now)
Bench: 410/415 -> 470 Touch n Go
Squat: 515 ATG - > 505 for 6 reps (Did not max)
Deadlift: Tweaked hammy and never maxed, prob around 675/680 based on workouts
Gains maintained: I believe I kept about 50 – 60% of my strength gains
Lifestyle: Very strenuous job time wise so diet can get complicated
General diet: This can change pending on work and weekend. I do not count macros
Breakfast:
-50g Protein shake 220calories
-6 Eggs
Snack 1: Meal replacement bar (depending on mood, range from 330-420 calories)
Lunch:
-12-16Oz of grilled chicken
-Vegetable options: Asparagus, string beans, side salad(Balsamic)
-Carb: Brown rice(1-2cups), sweat potato
Snack 2: Either protein bar or shake
Dinner:
-1-1.5 lb of grilled chicken or 1 -1.5 lb or top sirloin
-Same carb and vegetable options
Desert: probably 3x a week I will have a “healthy” ice cream (240-360 calories 20g protein)
-I love it, don’t judge me
Past training regimes
-Wendler 5/3/1
-Juggernaut training
-Candito’s powerlifting
-Texas method
-Westside method(Without the sweet equipment, so probably like half assed westside)
-Layne Norton’s TH3
-10x3 method originally described by Hepburn
-Power Muscle Burn (powerbuilding)
-Smolov Jr bench program
-Other crap I made up
Research: I did not start my first cycle until I read up on the subject for about 3 months while I really buckled down on a diet and training regime I had in mind for my first cycle. I did not know about this website as a source and find it incredible.
Thoughts on my first cycle: I thought it went very well. Gains were there, general feeling of well being was there, minimal side effects, and I recovered completely with “decent” maintenance of my strength.
Proposed second cycle and why I am coming to you guys
Second cycle: Same damn thing? It worked pretty well I don’t know why I would change much
Training regime: Modified Layne Norton TH3 plan (Its 5 days a week powerbuild, if you want more information I will post it but it will be long a complicated)
Goals: Maximize strength with minimal body fat gain, there will be a minor calorie cutback on cycle but nothing insane. No goal to get shredded.
Questions I have:
1.) My libido loss during PCT, probably during week 3 of PCT. Is that because my PCT was not sufficient enough for the amount I took? Was this to be expected? Might be a little picky, I was probably 100% by 6 weeks
2.) Clomid 100/100/50/50 Nolva 40/40/20/20. After a bunch of reading this seems to be the proposed PCT of choice right now. Especially for more “advanced cycles”. Would this be a better PCT if I repeat my same cycle?
3.) HCG: I read the HCG post that I found stickied on the forums. Seems like there are mixed opinions. My testes did not shrink that I recall, I recovered completely. Would this benefit me at all?
4.) Thoughts on running my AI EOD anyways even though my labs were fine? I did have mild water retention when the dbol was on board.
5.) Thoughts on different kick starter? Researched Tbol a bit, seems more mild than dbol but I really did not suffer many dbol side effects
6.) Bump test slightly? 600?
7.) I was mildly disappointed in only keeping 50-60 percent of my gains 7 months after my first cycle? Advice or any tips on a way to increase this long term maintenance
8.) Kind of dumb question and possibly just me. After the cycle and PCT were coming to an end is there a way to combat that transition of feeling like your on top of the world to a normal human? It almost felt like I was more down than I was before my cycle but I am pretty sure it was just back to baseline.
Final thoughts
I know I am definitely not as experienced as everyone on this forum so I do not mind being ripped into for not doing my research, you can never stop reading.
My goals are probably different from 95% of the people on this forum. I do not care at all what my bf% because for me my appearance will never change without skin removal surgery. I do care about looking good and with a shirt on I probably have a 14% BF appearance look. I would like to keep this mesomorph figure while increasing my strength gains
I am open to all criticisms and will answer any and all questions. Looking forward to any advice and really appreciate it in advance.
- Bookmark
- 0
- 0
Powerlifting You can almost eat anything just get that 50g of protein in every 3 hours
RustyhookerCould repeat the first if going for power. No need to get overly fancy.
MUST get bloods week 4. Feeling ok and being ok is very different deals. Youre a large mofo and should know your readings....cholesterol liver...etc etc. What you cant see can hurt you.
Pct....glad you updated that for better recovery. And again...if your estro is high, your body will not reset. Which could be why you lost some gains. Bloodwork.....
Hcg.... imo not on that cycle.
Privatemdlabs does bloods cheap. Female hormone panel for 60.
Privatemdlabs coupon.... FEB2018. Save money on top of it all. I just did this today. Bloods monday. Boom!
May I ask why? Why put your faith in a program developed by someone who is constantly—and I mean fucking constantly—injured? Norton knows nutrition. He’s an expert in that field. Training? Not so much.
Personally, I would never take someone’s advice who doesn’t know the difference between a back squat and a good morning and as a result ends up having to sleep on a hardwood floor for weeks at a time because his back hurts too bad to sleep in a bed.
HelloBrooklyn,
Thanks for the response. I did run his program once and I did not like it. Some things worked for me and some things did not. Thats why I am modifying his program to better suit my body. Basically i altered his spreadsheets for what I think will work best for me. Overall his bench plan worked well for him with the constant volume. The squat volume and deadlift volume was too much so I am tweaking that and changing his accessories completely. I should not have even called it his program really.
Technically if you’re modifying it on your own then you’re not doing the program. Some programs do explicitly allow for modifications to suit your needs. 5/3/1 is a great example of this, which is why it’s my favorite program of all time. It’s just so versatile and can be fitted to meet anyone’s needs. Norton’s layout has too much potential to cause overuse injuries IMO. 5 days of strenuous weight training is pushing it. The difference in recovery between 5 days and 4 is staggering. Something to think about. Remember you’re building muscle while you rest, not while you train.
Perhaps higher sugar and sodium levels in your body contributed to more water retention during then loss afterwards.
Try eating only two eggs along-side 5-6 egg whites.
Keeping 50% of gains is not ideal. I'd hold off from doing AAS again for a little while. Spend more time learning how your body reacts to different diets and different exercise regiments. When you've dialed down a diet that your body responds too really well, you'll keep more of our gains.
So my advice would be to hold off and do more research on AAS as well as your own body.
ChickenBirdofGains,
Thank you also for the reply and I will tweak the diet as best as I can. That was a "general" take on my diet, I actually do eat more egg whites than whole eggs. The reason my dieting really cannot be dialed in is due to work. Very volatile schedule with long days but the kicker is that most of the time breakfast and lunch are completely paid for and there are healthy options. I can get as many eggs and as much grilled chicken I want at breakfast and lunch.
I honestly think the reason I lost so much of my gains was when I was coming off of the alpha feeling I lost a lot of motivation. Sad but true. I think if i was able to keep up the intensity or at least 75% of it the loss would not have been as extreme.
Do you think the mood/motivation decrease was due to high estrogen?
Possible, labs were fine at 4 and 12 weeks though. Maybe next time i will run Aromasin during the PCT. Read mixed reviews on that.
RustyhookerSounds like it wasnt pharma pct and your pct was not strong enough either. Lived and learned
basskiller89I can't read that much right now
Congrats on your weight loss so far brother
Thanks Basskiller
basskiller89After writing a small book of a post myself I revisited your post to help out
Your body fat is most likely around 30+% seeing that you are 290lbs. Cycling at that body fat percentage is ill advised and you're going to have more estrogen related issues should you chose to run a cycle. If you were to run another cycle you would surely need to have an AI on hand and get blood work to confirm where your E levels are. I don't condone running a cycle at your current body fat percentage. I can say that if you were to run another cycle and disregard the advice of those saying no to, 500mg a week of test only with an AI would more than suffice
If your priority is to cut body fat then you will need to eat in a caloric deficit. You may experience a metabolic increase from the test seeing that you are a bit on the heavy end. This would in theory actually help you lose fat a faster but by no means is a valid justification to run a cycle
Thanks Basskiller,
Ya I am on the heavy side. I know im not 30%+ though, did bipod in college when I played football and I believe i was 25ish at the time. I am slightly lighter and have more muscle now than I did then. But your advice is noted and I will shed off at least 20 before I consider starting and find somewhere to get BF measured.