+ 2 Low estro on cycle
Hello fellas
Stats
Age: 41
Height: 181
Weight: 97kg
BF: 16%
Goal - pure bulk/mass gain. Diet - big but clean. Training - 5 days per week lots of volume with strength work on big compound movements. Minimal cardio maybe 2 day per week 45mins LISS. I walk everywhere though.
Some help please. As some of you know I am on cycle which is as follows:
- Weeks 1 - 10 Test 400 (a sust like blend with and extra 150mg/ml of test e) at 600mg per week
- Week 11 - 13 Test E at 250mg per week
- Week 1 - 13 Bold Cyp at 900mg per week
- Week 1 - 13 proviron at 50mg ED
- Standard Clomid and Nolva PCT week 16 - 19
- AI on hand but not running it.
I'm currently mid way through week 5 and ran mid cycle bloods. My estro came in at 14.6 pg/ml (ref range 27.1 - 52.2). My baseline is 33. Now this is clearly undesirable as I am on a pure bulk (this is probably hurting my gains) and I am feeling the effects of low estro - sore joints, lethargy and low libido. No problem performing but not much interest which is normally there opposite on cycle.
So my question is what to do? It's obvious its the proviron that's causing this and I must be super sensitive. I could drop the dose I guess but am using it primarily to lower SHBG and free up test (note I'm still waiting for my SHBG number and should have it later today). Does anyone have any thoughts for me on the best course of action to take here. Appreciate the help fella's.
- Bookmark
- 2
- 0
Some very interesting info here...
It's seems like your option of dropping the proviron would be a good one and just an idea would be to introduce some Pharma test prop while u stop the use of your mix blend test.
Whenever Ive had a hit from a suspect low / under dosed test compound I've always bridged on to Pharma prop to sort myself out at 100mg everyday and then at a more standard dose of 300mg per week EOD when I start to feel things are somewhat normal again
This is only what has worked for me in the past and may be of some help to you...
Thanks everyone for the replies. I've just got the uncapped test number which came in at 174 nmol/l. On 600mg of Test is that even possible? And if it is I'm even more confused as to my estro number being so low. Now I'm even more confused.
yours test is properly dosed ,trt dose like 100mg per week gives about 30nmol,so 170/30 = ~600mg +/-
im still sure that bold is killing your e2
Sorry but I thought 600mg would give you high 70's. That's what my research showed. Am I wrong here?
Id think youd be much higher then 70. im constantly around 3500-4000ng/dl on 500mgs of test, thats 122nmol/L +
Thanks fella. I see now I had this wrong the whole time. Thanks for you help with this one.
definitely no
http://www.anabolic.org/testosterone-enanthate/ scroll down until graph
Cheers fella. That's reassuring. Not sure how I got the high 70's number in my head.
Your base line e2 was 33. Your base line test level was what?
19 nmol/l
Given I'm on 600mg test and 900mg bold per week. If the bold is actually test then that would mean I'm actually on 1.5g of test a week which should yield a total testosterone blood level of about 170 nmol/l. Which is about where I am. Still doesn't explain the low estro which on 1.5g per week should be high. So I'm not sure I trust the lab results at all. Just really confused.
If your weight is up and your strength.is up then it is the lab...and not the test...
So ask the lab to retest? You think I'm legitimately on bold? Strength is up and I'm up 4.5kg in 5 weeks. Hunger has been crazy. Got good vascularity even though I've picked up BF.
Yea i believe you are on bold. Deathpenalty has a good idea about whats going on plus holding the provi would not be a bad idea, until you can get, bloodwork again, or experience some signs & sx of elevated e2...tingly nipps...oily face...etc
Have you compared your base line LH and FSH with current BW result?
No I never got them tested. No point on cycle is my view. Would expect them to be zero or close to it.
I know..makes sense until you run into a situation like this.
provi crashed my estro when i was using 50mgs on roughly 220mgs of test, total test was a little over 900 and estro was 5. but on 600mgs noway, your capped right around 1500ng/dl, that level of test should be high enough to run 50mgs of proviron, unless you really just dont convert any test to estrogen. i have a few guys i help out and one was running 500mgs and i had him on just 50mgs of provi ( good provi same brand that crashed my estro) as provi is basically all i use as an ai unless i have to add some adex and his estro was 140 something, So your on 100 more mgs of test, same dose of provi, but with extremely low estro. So with that said my guess is the test must be underdosed, you should at the very least be in the 40s if not a little higher.
I ran almost the same cycle last summer, 500mgs of test e, 750mgs of bold cyp and 50mgs of provi and I had to actually add .25mgs of adex either twice ew or mwf as my estro was a litttle to high, and i let it get high when i bulk typically i like it around 50-60. Honestly one of my favorite cycles to date, but the boldenone had no effect on lowering my estrogen.
What i did in your situation was drop the proviron, i added like 2-3 shots of prop, something that would release from the ester quickly and have a chance to convert to estrogen, and i also added a few shots of tne pre workout. Low estro sucks, besides the fact it hinders gains, it effects the rest of your life also, my gf was freaking out, thinking i wasnt attracted to her and thats why i was never coming onto her, i didnt even notice cause i had no desire, joints hurt so bad i could barely lift, tired all the time, couldnt keep it up for more then like 5 minutes before she had to intervene if you know what i mean lol. It sucks, id try and get it back up asap.
And try and get that true test number uncapped. But still at 1500ng/dl, or 52 nmol/L I cant see how 50mgs of proviron would have your estro so low.
RustyhookerIm thinking you're correct. Provi is strong, especially if test is underdosed.
Never ever heard of eq/bold causing ai like metabolites. Im on eq often and depending on test, provi, mast.....adjust ai as/if needed.
I was 874 with test 125/wk and provi 25 eod. E2 was <5.0, but no S & Sx of low E2. And that was low dose exem AI 3mg eod...
Cheers brother. See above. Something very strange is going on
1)empty test
2)instead of proviron is AI(lab mistake)
3)sometimes bold kills e2 by unknown reason.saw a plenty of bloods from guys(local forum) who was on bold(undecylenate) 70-80% had same estro(without AI ofc) ,maybe try to add some test(prop?)/dianabol
Likely culprit is 1 and 3 or a combo. I'm waiting for an uncapped test result to confirm. All I know is test is over 52.05 nmol/l. If it's not high 70's then it's probably underdosed and 50mg provi has killed my estro somewhat. I know bold partly metabolises into an AI so this could be a factor too. I doubt it's 2 as its pharma and I've used it before. SHBG level will confirm here as soon as I get it.
RustyhookerEq kills estro? Any evidence?
None Rusty other than I read in a steroid profile that a metabolite of bold is an AI. Will try and dig it out.
That said if you read the rest of this I'm not even sure I'm on bold given my test level are 174 nmol/l. But you would expect big estro numbers on that much test even on 50mg provi ed.
Just confused now. Trying to formulate a plan here.
RustyhookerYes, that would be interesting reading. If I ran no mast or provi and test mg were large weekly doses, I'd need an ai. That's the idea behind manipulation of test. Interesting.
Are the 50 provi pharma? Not getting excess? Dbol will bump estro up but being that low IF the bold is testosterone is nutty.
Wonder if megat883 has been on lately? Last cycle I ran sust at 700 with eq 630 and mast e at 400. Estro was low for me on that mast. Will adjust lower next round.
There you go.
http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/anabolic-steroids-equipoise/
So what were your total test levels on that cycle? My test levels are similar to your but my bold us quite a bit higher. EDIT: Provi is pharma
RustyhookerThat was a good read! Learning new things daily. Much appreciated!
I'd try halfing the provi or dropping it. Tread cited good bulking has estro 20-50. 42 is the top of normal but if there's no negatives then I'd see no reason to get towards 50. Water is easy to control with vitamin c if needed.
Sounds like your body doesn't convert to e2 as much as others do. Some folks need no ai and others need letro even on small cycles.
Very interesting.
Sure thing that was my plan. To drop the provi and change test to pharma then reintroduce it later. I last ran 750mg pharma test e and 50mg provi and estro was at 45! That was on the assumption the test blend I was on was underdosed. Then the curveball uncapped test reading of 174 nmol/l and confusion reigns supreme. My only conclusion here is the lab has made an error. I have a question out with them so let's see what hey say. Blood testing in the UK is a barrel of laughs. Not! Cheers fella.
Let us know what it is...
Will do fella.
Probably unbind better at 25 eod...estro may be mid 40s with that dose and frequency...u gonna get retested at 3 wks, or go off S & Sx of high estro?
I'm really waiting to see the true uncapped test level to make a decision. If this not above 70 then it's likely test is underdosed. If so I'll switch up test to pharma, take a break from the provi and reintroduce in 10 days at 50mg ED. If test is properly dosed I'll reintroduce at 25mg ED. I don't plan on getting retested before the end of this cycle. I'll only have 3 maybe 4 weeks to go by the time this gets all sorted so it's not really worth it considering the considerable costs and hassle of blood testing in the UK. I had thought about running a low dose of d-Bol for a week or two but think it's a bit extreme and I could end up at the other end of the spectrum so have shelved that idea for now.
bigmurphDropping the Proviron would be the obvious choice but try using 25mgs instead of 50mgs. Test again in a couple weeks and see what comes back. You seem to be taking a good amount of test did you get your test numbers also because im surprised your estro is that low on 50mgs. Everyone is different though.
Good luck brother if you need anything you know you can hit me up anytime
I really think that you're right and your test might be underdosed because it being a fast ester blend. I would just assume that there would be more estro there.
Cheers brother. I'm waiting for the uncapped test result and this will tell if it's underdosed test which is the culprit. For now I'm dropping the proviron completely to let my estro levels get back in range. If it's underdosed test I will switch to pharma test e and add the proviron back in a couple of weeks.
Shouldnt take long with blend you are running to see aromatization...add a two cheat diets over the course of the next 2 weeks...
Only one sensible path here. Drop the proviron.
Thanks fella. Drop dose or drop it all together? Strange as the last time I ran test at 500mg per week and 50mg proviron per day my estro was about 40. Can't understand why it's so low now. Test could be underdosed is one possibility (I'm waiting for the uncapped number - it's >52.05 nmol/l for what it's worth). I also read somewhere that although bold aromatises at roughly 50% of test one of its metabolites is in fact an AI so if this is true then could be that.
Short term I'd just drop it, but as you've mentioned there's likely other stuff going on here. It is possible though you just don't convert much to estro, I don't. 50mg of proviron in 750mg of test would give me low estro.
Take a look at my post at the top. The numbers are not making sense at all. Staring to question the lab I have to admit. Any further thoughts would be appreciated.
Good post...interesting subject...has me thinkng about both provi and bold a:a ratios...100:50 if my memory serves me correctly..