Deca VS npp
Trying to figure out what I run for my next cycle. This was my original idea;
http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/next-cycle-...-updated
Originally test e, deca, eq. Dropped the eq for my first run with a 19nor.
I've read some horror stories about deca, some say it affects them worse than tren. So I think I for a first timer I might switch the deca to npp at 150mg eod. That way if I hate the way it makes me feel, I can just stop and be better after a few days.
Also, I'm thinking of adding masteron prop at week 14 and run it up to right before pct, for a total of 7 weeks. Week 13 would be the end of the nandrolone so there wouldn't be any added pinning.
Opinions, ideas, critique, critics?
On a side note, the peptides section is a lot quieter than I expected....
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After playing around with steroid calculators, I think I've settled with a cycle of dosages that will give the steadiest blood levels and have, mg for mg, around 2:1 test/npp.
http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/next-cycle-...-updated..again#comment-1...
I'm planning on getting blood tests on my own near the first of June to see how pct went. Then I'll go get them at the doctors in August before starting this cycle.
your doses are to high.
75mg/d prop is most likely enough. 100mg/d prop is an advanced dose. 150mg/d is way to much
50mg/d NPP
that is plenty to achieve goals.
hmmmm alright.. glad I've got plenty of time to plan this.
Don't I want to keep the test double the npp?
I'll play with the calculators some more.
some people need it that high some people dont. im fine a 75/50, ive read many threads of guys running higher NPP/deca then test, but I would guess the vast majority of us will not have a good experience with that.
Personally I see nothing wrong with starting at 75/50 and bumping up to 100/50 if problems occur. it would only take a few days for it to clear up and you would know that you are susceptible to deca dick.
if you niffty on a barrel and mg/ml its not hard to run 75/40 too. which is plenty.
alright cool thanks.
I found with the tools I was led to, that ed pinning with both compounds gives the most stable graph.
yes it does, and you can, However the difference in stability for ED and EOD pinning will likely not be noticeable. Yet the risk of infection is increased as well as rotation of pin spots.
Rod1971Hey JIM9813 , how R U ? I'm Rod and I live in LA ... I lost my source and I'm trying to find a website or dealer to get some . Any help? I can send you my cell if you want . Thanks in advance
Rod
ridiculous.
Alright fellas I'm listening. I downloaded that calculator and have been plugging numbers in for what seems like eternity. If there's that one program, there's gotta be a simpler one....
But anyway, though time consuming and confusing at first, I got numbers that were across the board stable. It took some funky dosages, but with the understanding of esters I guess it does really make sense.
What I've got here is a 1.91:1 ratio of test to nandrolone according to this calculator. As simple as can be. I may drop the dbol just to really keep it simple, add it to a following cycle, sell it, eat it when I'm bored.....
http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/next-cycle-...-updated..again
I used http://pct.befit4free.net/index.php to determine there should be 5 days after the last test pin.
I tapered the prop to match what that calculator said would be the half the value of nandrolone as the it dissipates.
QUESTION;
I'm not incredibly familiar with prami, I know there's a bunch of threads on it and I've read a few but I don't know if this was brought up; is the prami continued into pct? If so, how far?
Yeah, if u want to minimize the peak to trough it can get complicated. If u feel u are comfortable with the software - go for it - if u have any questions about it, u can PM me. BTW, that 2:1 ratio u have there is older than I am. LOL If u want stable blood levels, why guess at at?
Im not sure which one you used but roidcalc.com is the one ive used.
Is roidcalc.com the actual domain name? Wouldn't come up for me, just got the "this domain name may be for sale" garbage. Didn't know if you abbreviated something there. Thanks!
(http://roidcalc.powerbody.ru) sometimes you got to translate it to English there is a button to do that.
same here...
(http://roidcalc.powerbody.ru)
ahhh very nice.. me thank you very much
NP, it's a great site. Thanks to Roid for turning me onto this
X2 super easy to use
Here is one of the best reads on Prami I have found- (www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/pramipexole-better-t....)
don't know why the link isn't working, just copy and paste it into your browser.
Thanks, I've read that post and all the links in it. Haven't found a definite answer in regards to pct. But I suppose it doesn't matter if prolactin levels in males are rock bottom, there's only benefits. So running it through pct sure won't hurt even if not necessary.
RustyhookerIm reading this to learn. Haven't yet run npp. And I'm usually someone that pushes to match Esters to avoid issues.
Wondering the goals of the OP. meaning it's near summer where many dudes want beach look. Others bulk now for winter shows.
Thinking outside the box, I'm a fan of eq and simply being patient. So if op is set on long ester test and npp for quick switch then why not 12 Weeks enanthate and npp 4-10? Slower buildup of test then boom til 10. Week 12 stop enanthate. If wanting to finish dryer wont npp do that at 250/week with oed splits. Add mast prop in 8-14.
Goals are to gain strength and improve appearance. I've never done a bulker, I don't want to get huge. BUT I certainly wouldn't mind adding some lean mass. If I get a wet bulk going that's fine too. I guess I don't really have a set goal now that I really think about it. I do know I want to prevent that round bloated look, so estro sides and water retention prevention is always in my mind.
The idea of test e / npp was crushed further down in this thread, the idea being that for 4 or 5 weeks while waiting for the enanthate to release the npp is going strong with a lack of test support (which is where thought of sustanon came in...and then that was idea was crushed).
According to the rule of thumb I shouldn't cycle again until September, and life is getting in the way of a lot right now and will be for the next couple of months so physically I may not be ready for a while. But I would like to start in July and be one of the jacked duded on the beach hahaa!....
I may consider doing a full on bulk next winter, following the rule of thumb I wouldn't be able to start that until February.
RustyhookerJust some clean bulk without long or complicated cycle can be simpler then. Less worries with test/mast and maybe oral finish. Bulk or cut really comes with diet. If your close to goal weight/size and diets on point then short estered runs are easy. Im currently on a dry eq run but it is long and slow. If you wait til winter then less worry of beach body and can choose a lil dirty run.
I like this forum though. So many ways to do it!
Bro, u can play games with this and assemble all the learned opinions u want but there is no substitute for a computer to determine what is stable and when and how it all unwinds at the end. Like Noid said below, with sus u can have 3 to 5 different test esters - u need a machine to show u what that actually looks like with various pinning schedules. Now your wanting to add a phenylpropionate ester with (traditional sus) a propionate ester, an isocaproate ester, a decanoate ester and if u buy from the lab I use it could also have an acetate ester in there as well. There is also another phenylpropionate ester usually in the sus as well. U still got 4 weeks of dbol in there - why exactly with the sus? If u use a machine u will be able to see how the sus plasma level builds and declines at the end of the cycle. Do what u want bro - I personally don't mix a bunch of different esters up in a cycle unless I can see what I'm doing. I don't go on roller coaster rides with anabolics. No need to. Not anymore.
when i first found roidcalc i must have spent 2 days on there. I think I spent a good 4 hours just running frontloads! I think some guys just really have a desire to understand whats going on and others just want someone else to tell them. I used to tell guys all the time to go do some research and then ill help them so im glad to see someone else pushing the research.
x2 on the roller coaster crap, ive done them but I like stability much better.
I dunno how to play around with a bunch of mixed esters without software. I ain't that smart.
Whats "software" is that like marshmellow dumbbells or something lol or a slack cock?
It might help avoid a slack cock. http://www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com Guessing is over.
it would be cool if they made one of those calc's that showed the decrease in testosterone over time and by compound. obviously different in everyone but, if you took the high road for precaution it would be very educational for these non-TRT guys that wanna do crazy cycles.
unrealistic as far as i could tell but it sure would be cool!
http://pct.befit4free.net/index.php I think kind of does that
I ran the numbers on your front load protocol and bunch of others. The one you suggested definitively brought the level up quickly and more stable. So that's the one I went with. Sides were no more noticeable this way either. Roidcalc is very addicting when you figure out how to use it.
your over complicating things mate, nandrolone decanoate takes a a fair while to kick in, and a fair while to clear out approx.- 4-6 weeks, it takes 3-4 weeks to reach peak plasma levels in your system, so you have a lot of wasted periods of time where your levels are unstable and not consistent, the first 4 weeks are sort of wasted when comparing the compound too npp, you get less pinning, but for me personally less dramatic sides, but you have too suffer with them for longer, recovery is pro longed, and to be honest a lot of guys are finished up with pct before the ester has even cleared there bodies.
npp is in and out, no wasted or dead time, and as well in my opinion as viking said below, should be used and looked at more like tren aces little brother, npp and tren ace in my opinion iare more similar to each other than deca and npp, except that tren is more androgenic and that trens binding affinity is much higher and stronger, the gains come quicker due to the short ester, and recovery is quicker due to being able to pct sooner, you got more pinning and in my opinion and experience the sides hit you harder and quicker due to you body immediately up taking the compound.
all in all in my opinion and experience npp is the better compound, its versatile and you can cease the cycle at any time, wit a few days and start your pct, im not giving you cycle advice, im just giving my opinion, you need to research a lot more, you need all your ancillaries, caber, prami or bromo because they are progesterone receptors alarm clock, and when he awakes you will have enough milk in your titties to feed all off monster666s bastard children.
also match esters long with longs and shorts with shorts.
good luck mate.
Experiences and opinions is what I'm looking for, thank you.
I'm trying to soak in all the info and adjust accordingly and logically. I'm not even going to start stocking up until July at the earliest. But I'm getting conflicting information. Some say yes, the phenylprop should be used before the decanoate so if sides are too harsh it can leave the system more quickly. But you wouldn't want test e only bc the npp will kick in so much sooner without test support, that's why I switched to sust.
If you want to say nandrolone is nandrolone or test is test, I'll partially agree. But for the years I've been reading threads on eroids the same has been said, less bloat with the shorter esters. If you want to say they are same either way, I welcome the information you have to contribute. I've used most of the test esters and no ester, personally I don't notice a difference in bloat but it is something I'd like to avoid. And the dbol doesn't seem to make me bloat either. I do keep water pills on hand but never used them.
Roid noid, I thought I do have knowledge on esters but I don't understand the issue with running multiple ester test along with the npp. My 'all over the fkn place' is my adjusting due to suggestions and further learning....like I stated, I've got plenty of time. You recommended npp over deca for a first run but then said multiple deca cycles before combining npp and sust... can you explain why this is? and also, are you saying to stick to test e / npp or test prop / npp?
Look bro,
U want to do this right? U wanna run Sus? NPP? Whatever. Time to get some software and stop guessing. The software is cheap and I think there is a trial version. U take the sus, you break down the concentrations of all the individual esters and half lives and put it into the program. U will get a graphical time-series picture of the blood plasma levels of all the compounds, even the orals. Anything else is just speculation.
http://www.anabolicsteroidcalculator.com
There are others, this is one.
Awesome thank you, I'll play around with that
sust can have 3 to 5 different test esters, running NPP with it on a first run is not smart due to the sust instability. IF you where to do it then the NPP isnt added until around week 5 when the sust has become a little more stable, but still not recommended as a first time deca/NPP cycle.
Im not sure what the reasons are for running long estered test with short estered deca. just keep it simple and run prop with NPP or test-e/c with deca.
Alright thanks, I appreciate that.
Nandrolone is Nandrolone...
Really? :/
Ok so I revamped the set up, completely. Switched test e to sust, deca to npp, and shortened the cycle.
http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/next-cycle-...-updated..again
I realize this is a set up for a bulking cycle, as I said my goal is to improve physique, gain strength and lastly gain size. As always diet dictates gains.
Im not even gonna look at this cycle, your all over the fkn place, Gearhead had you lined out with some stuff to look into and I know damn well it wasnt sust and NPP as a cycle. You should have ran several deca cycles and have extensive knowledge of esters before trying to put these 2 together in a cycle.
I get the impression most folks view NPP like the Deca version of test prop!............. how wrong that illusion is!... you are correct bro, research is key with NPP... it can be a fkn beast if not used correctly .
I like to class it as Trenbolones not so little brother.
Deca is indeed very suppressive, for many years there was an article going around about how 1 shot of deca would shut you down 100%, there was a lot of people parroting this theory around. But my experience with deca prior to going TRT was not as this posts suggests. In fact I stopped a deca cycle at 5 weeks in and recovered fairly well. However it was a 12-14 weeks deca cycle that I ran and then a 6 week tren cycle attached to it that ended my natural test. Some years ago we had a thread in here about how suppressive deca was and the general consensus was that the longer ran the worse the shutdown. Kind of common sense really.
So in terms of NPP or deca I would suggest NPP at no longer then 8 weeks for your first run.
Just saw this after rebuilding the cycle. I'll definitely take into consideration shortening the npp duration.
Deca horror stories, "I got way too big on that $hit man, I fear being that big" must have been the horror. If I could change my username it would be Deca4Decades
Bro,
Horror stories about deca? Comparing it to Tren? I dunno. We're all different. It could just very well be that I haven't met anybody that told me a horror story about deca - but that doesn't really mean anything, I reckon.
Test / Deca is normally a bulker, I would lose the mast. Also, if u pin NPP when u start Test E, u are gonna have nandrolone in your blood by itself until the Test E plasma level comes up. The way out of that is to pin Test P with the NPP.
I would like to know more about your cycle history. In the meantime take a look at:
http://www.eroids.com/og/intermediate-cycles/cycle-test-deca-bulking-cycle
I'll give that a read in a bit, I've gotta get out of the house. Maybe it was just one story I read, I don't remember, just know it's happened. I believe npp can be used as a cutter as well, I'm just kind of going for a recomp type cycle or lean mass gains. I definitely see what you're saying about the test e and npp, I already have a shit ton of dbol on hand so I'm not going to add a prop kick. Thank you for that, I should have seen that issue already on my own. But maybe and EOD sustanon regimen would be better?
1) Yeah, u can use sus as a base.
2) Now u are mentioning dbol as well - Test / Deca / dbol ain't no recomp cycle bro - you're dient governs for certain, but that tis not the optimal set of chemicals for "recomp."
Well now I'm not saying I would hate having an increase in mass, it's really just not my main goal. This is in the thread you linked to;
Expected Gains and Side Effects
Like I said earlier, you will get very good gains in both strength and size from this cycle as long as your calories are high. High protein and carbohydrates are a necessity.
You can cut with this cycle, as with any cycle, but you may notice a little bit of water retention from these compounds. That is not to say it can not be done, but this is primarily a bulking cycle.
One of the reasons I think npp would be a better choice is to minimize bloat. I have a very low sodium intake, drink a lot of water and use potassium in everything I cook.