Swoljaboy's picture
Swoljaboy
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No Karma. Asking this just to learn a little better. It has been brought to my attention that DHT derivitive will play a role in diminishing HGH conversion. Mast proviron ect ect. I’m wondering how true this is. What other compounds can mess with hgh conversion. As well as anything else such as diet ect ect. I do take GH in the morning fully fasted pre workout. Also night time injection I do not eat before or a few hours after. So basically looking for any and all things that can diminish hgh conversion. Thanks.
SOURCE did NOT Tell me this was reason for low IGF-1. another member commented on the blood work stating this. Went to do some research couldnt find nothing so i came to here

Sciroxx's picture

Indeed according to empirical data from many individuals on forums DHT derivatives may lower IGF1 serum levelto some degree in some of the cases.
How ever it's very important to consider that the GH/IGF1 axis is very complex, and reflecting between the exact IGF1 serum read and the actual effect may be misleading.

  • First we must note that GH has direct anabolic and metabolic effects which are independent of IGF1 .... GH has its on receptors in almost any tissue

  • The IGF1 effect depends on IGFBP (binding proteins) so for instance the serum levels of IGF1 may be lowered by DHT derivatives, but the binding protein levels are lowered as well hence more IGF1 is bio-available.

  • It's known that androgens potentiate the anabolic effects of GH. The classic example is puberty of course, when the introducing of androgens turns a boy into a man. One of the possible mechanism in by up-regulating IGF1 receptors in target tissues independently to IGF1 secretion by the liver, many DHT derivatives has a very high activity in muscle tissue and may contribute to this effect

  • Most importantly, GH triggers IGF1 and other growth factors release locally and directly is muscle (and probably fat) tissues, this is called paracrine effect. This effects greatly and directly on local growth, and is independent on the serum levels. Thus theoretically the liver my down-regulate IGF1 serum levels, but there is a higher expression of growth factors in muscle tissue.

Bill1976's picture

This is what I was just looking for lol. Thanks

Tricepatops's picture

Thanks for that.

Big Tone36's picture

Karl dropping knowledge, good stuff!

Makwa's picture

Thanks Karl

Swoljaboy's picture

BOOM.

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Makwa's picture
Swoljaboy's picture

Good read.

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Tricepatops's picture

Great info. Need to be posted and with any new updates in testing should be added upon or any updates on it would be cool. So I guess when we get IGF1 test stick with the same lab then to get the best results to compare and even doing a baseline lab at the same lab.

wanted's picture

Whats the mirror telling you

Swoljaboy's picture

On days the dysmorphia isnt hitting hard I look fucking great. thing is this is why I am confused Due to numb hands waking me up and my sin and nails looking great. I was broken out like a bitch before using it. All good thouhj currently have some other reptuable shit.

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wanted's picture

Dysmorphia is a real and powerful thing. I deal with it my whole life. So i know exactly what you mean

Tricepatops's picture

https://www.eroids.com/pics/puretropin-grey-tops-igf-1-results-plus-some...

This is one post I read. Just to shed some light in where I think this started

Makwa's picture

Good find. I believe Swoljboy's bloods were analyzed with LC/MS. Regardless, Dacky's bloodwork shows that DHT has no effect on IGF.

vengar's picture

His tests were done through LabCorp. LC uses Immunochemiluminometric assay (ICMA).

That's why I use Quest for my IGF tests because they're LC/MS. I believe MegaT said that DHT has no effect on IGF when it's done with a LC/MS test.

https://www.labcorp.com/tests/010363/insulin-like-growth-factor-1-igf-1

Swoljaboy's picture

Good Looks.

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Makwa's picture

then the fanboys for the source come to the sources rescue Lol

Swoljaboy's picture

Lmao.

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Swoljaboy's picture

I should add that in there. Source did not say this. A member commented it on my bloods

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Tricepatops's picture

I am the one who mentioned it. I said it could me a multitude of things and said that I read on here Eroids that some have said DHT based steroids can affect IGF1 bloods. I posted the post I read it from. It was from Dacky who back then was a member who seemed like he was a trustworthy and knowledgeable one. (Not saying he isn't one now or back then just haven't seen him on here in a minute) I haven't seen him on here in awhile. Let me explain that I didn't say that is what caused it I just gave him options to look at. There were quite a few posts but Dackys above is the one that seems like a good read. Now does it prove that DHT based causes low bloods no. But he does have some labs that he thinks have caused it that look like it has merit but I just find it interesting and can't say imo that it isn't entirely possible. But I do think that it is possible to give you a false lower reading. I still think it works at the cellular level but somehow under bloods my give a low reading. Just like Deca or NPP give you false high testosterone readings.

Swoljaboy's picture

NAH it wasnt you brother. It was someone else that said what they said to make me post this

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Tricepatops's picture

Ok cool. I felt like I need to explain because I know I said it could be different things and even mentioned guys while back were mentioning DHT type steroids. But still was a good post as I am learning some new things and get to look back at something I haven't real paid any attention to until this Convo.

Makwa's picture

As long as the lab is using the correct testing procedure, you won't get false readings.

Makwa's picture

Dacky is a standup dude. We used to chat alot, especially about HGH and IGF-LR3. He was very experimentally focused to help rule out broscience.

Tricepatops's picture

If it wasn't him I would not even really mentioned it but yea he was pretty good dude haven't seen him around in awhile. Just had a feeling that there wouldn't be many studies on DHT or other AAS on GH affecting IGF1 values. Some bro science can be good and other bro science is just we will say not right. But I think after he posted that sources would use that as to why some had low IGF1 numbers.

Makwa's picture

Alot of times in this game all we have to work off of is broscience. Sources are always looking for a way out. We have to keep them accountable.

Swoljaboy's picture

Just looking for FACTS with Evidence.

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Makwa's picture

Classic response from a source with a bad test. I have some inquiries in to some people I trust who know their shit about this issue so I will report back if I hear anything different. This would essentially mean it is pointless to be running HGH on a cycle. Yes test will also increase DHT. So we shouldn't be running test with HGH either. Continue on with your test, mast and provi in your cycles along with your HGH.

Tricepatops's picture

I know you are very knowledgeable about this world. So you ever get numbers of your IGF1 on igf? This is just a curiosity question just wanted to see what numbers would look like on IGF1 compared to just GH. Also not saying that DHT blocks in IGF1 in the muscle but on blood tests I have seen guys and I can only take their for their words for it, they say their numbers are higher on their labs without certain DHT based steroids. Now saying that I can take 100mgs of test and then 200 mgs of NPP and my testosterone numbers look like I am on 300 mgs of test but I know that isn't true. I have done that with three different brands and Everytime my numbers are through the roof. Pharm test and good UGl test. Now I know I really don't have that much test in my body so maybe the IGF1 gives us the opposite with a DHT type steroid but yet we still really have IGF1 , higher then blood test says when we are using it. This is just me speculating and maybe I am completely wrong as I am not as knowledgeable when it comes to IGF1 testing as other tests. Hope this is beating a dead horse with this post but I still after all these years have not found an answer that points me to believe one way or another. To be honest mine was a little lower with prov before but I can't no for sure because I didn't record my doses in my log book like usual. I wish when I first started I would have been a better note keeper. Cause I can go back to logs and compare to bloods and see what I was taking exactly and for how long.

Makwa's picture

From my understanding there is no accurate blood test that can be used when injecting exogenous IGF. It has something to do with the assay of the blood test that measures the IGF that is bound to certain proteins. When supplementing with exogenous IGF the whole point is to not have it bound by these proteins so it is essentially free floating and attaches to the receptors that we want it to when needed. This is my dumbed down version of explaining it but essentially there is no test for when supplying it exogenously.

I think alot of broscience is coming into play with the whole DHT IGF issue. DHT is an important androgen in the liver so I think a leap is being made that having elevated levels of DHT outcompetes or somehow blocks the conversion of GH to IGF1 in the liver.
I haven't found any credible evidence to support this this claim so that is why I put some feelers out to some people who actually know about this stuff. I feel if that was true, all of us who are usually doing bloodwork on cycle and testing IGF would all have piss poor IGF values.

Tricepatops's picture

That's interesting on the IGF1. I never really gave any thought into until now and I know since it is a prescription medication for some I guess I assumed they would have a test for it.

Swoljaboy's picture

This is why I like @Makwa he keeps it straight forward. I was only on Proviron. And Just for reference The source did not happen to say that. Has not said much actually. it was another member that commented saying that wich made me start to question. and Rather ask Everyone for the general census on this topic. But that makes Perfect sense because if this was the case Test would fuck with the numbers to.

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Makwa's picture

I have actually heard that exact response from actual sources that had bad bloods pop up. I don't know where that is coming from though. just for shits and giggles I googled things like, effects of DHT on HGH, effects of DHT on IGF1 levels, etc. etc. etc. You know what I came up with zilch. If this was a major concern, the screeen would have been lighting up if it was even remotely commonplace. So, until I hear from real authorities on this, I am not going to believe in the broscience.

Tricepatops's picture

I did the same. Like is said this was a big discussion on here awhile back and some sources who are quite reputable made comments on it and some members had bloods to back it. I would also like to know if it is true or not. Also I have to take the members words that these were accurate. I could be wrong but I thought a few members did a test with a DHT steroid on it and off it just to see. Just trying to help SB figure out why his IGF1 was low. I know it could be a multitude of things that's why I threw out a bunch of things that people on here have said in the past. I will try to find the posts. Some of these who made the comments were at the time reputable sources and members.

Swoljaboy's picture

I also tried google before bringing it to here. And same shit NOTHING. I do that with Everything before I post something. because usually I can filter through google bullshit and I go with what majority is saying. other forums and stuff studies. But your right Nothing on there supports this.

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Tricepatops's picture

I know in the past people have said it messes with your numbers on a test now does it actually mess up your body getting the IGF1 from the hgh I would like to know more also. Some sources have come out and said that when people have lower IGF1 numbers. Also other people taking that exact same GH had great numbers. I know this doesn't help answer your question but I will try to find those posts where they are talking about it and maybe people added more to it. Gave you karma my bad bro. Just think this is something that can be brought up and talked about again.

Swoljaboy's picture

All in All it coulda been Bunk GH. Plain and simple really. I have Some GH im running right now With a shit ton of blood work on here that backs it up. I am scheduling bloods this monday again probably about 2 weeks from Monday Ill go again and Keep same protocol and this will probably help with telling the whole story. Because if I bloods dont check out with this current GH then something aint rigiht.

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Swoljaboy's picture

lol No pressure bro. I am curious myself. due to the proviron use and everything. Because on the GH i slept great and my hands were waking me up multiple times a night due to numbness so the sides were there pretty heavy. the IGF-1 pull just has been sitting with me the last few days. But i figured it would be a good topic to bring back on the forfront due to Me not really being able to find anything. I found somthing from four years ago about a guy and his wife same GH wifes IGF-1 was elevated. His on the other hand was not and he was on Proviron and masteron. So that alone shows it does play some role. I would like to know if anything else can fo this Besides DHT deriv.

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Tricepatops's picture

I do think if your liver is being hampered by liver toxic stuff we put in our bodies then I could see how the liver might have a hard time converting to IGF1 from the GH as it is trying to heal itself and keep toxins out. One way is if you do a lab draw and when you do this or maybe I will or someone is to be consistent as possible with everything you are eating and using is to dose with 50mgs prov and do one without. I can't do it without test because I am prescribed trt and don't feel like feeling like shit for a couple weeks or so to find out. That could tell something. But who knows the IGF could be working fine in muscles etc. And just are lower on blood test. I have read things that say it isn't true then other say it is and have tests to back it up that certain stuff interferes with IGF1 on blood test.

Swoljaboy's picture

Yea Im not coming off test to find this out. But if that were the case people would be pulling shit numbers.

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Tricepatops's picture

This is what is fascinating about this type of stuff because you can always learn which I enjoy doing. When I was in high school different story. But yea I want to know because I take prov on test as it is a very great thing to make your use of testosterone that much better