Sciroxx's picture
Sciroxx
  • 355
  • SRC
4409

+ 5 GH, IGF1 and should I combine them ?

ad

I've been asked more then several times if IGF1 should be combined with GH, and why not to take it by itself or instead of GH usage ? I posted this elsewhere, and was adviced to post here as well to bring this to the attention of as many memers as possible.

In a nutshell the ideal solution is using GH in combination with IGF1-lr3 and/or IGF1-DES

It's true that the IGF1 is the mediator for most of the anabolic effect of the GH, but we must consider 2 things -

  1. The GH has some direct metabolic effect by itself, both in releasing glucose and fatty acid into the circulation, and by this raising metabolism and releasing available energy for anabolic demands, The GH has also a direct effect on nitrogen balance not through the IGF1 path

  2. The IGF1 itself has a direct suppressing effect on the endogenous GH release - so if u inject exogenous IGF you actually and directly suppress any GH present in the circulation

So the ideal solution is combining them both and by this keep optimal serum GH and IGF1 levels

Musclemechanic76's picture

I personally love to combine igf des and hgh
I use igf bilateral during pumping stage of workout.
Go pin bilateral then finish workout.
I use fasted with t4 50mcg then eat after yhr hour fssdredand add carb drink after hour mark.thrn eat after workout
Igf receptors have to unlocked from sensing hgh release or administering timing is perfect.
The sponsors igf des and hgh sone of best from my experience.
I will post photos soon durung these times I used this way.

Igf des or lr3 dont make a difference unless receptors are unblocked period.

Sr10000's picture

Can I hear your thoughts on using HGH + IGF des post-workout more so for nutrient uptake as well as insulin sensitivity?
or
would you believe that GH + an LR3 would suffice for all-day nutrient uptake?

Sciroxx's picture

IGF1-DES should be used pre-workout, there is an approach to use it post workout, yet the science I'm familiar with requires (an immediate) pre-workout injections

Any IGF1 will increase insulin sensitivity to some degree, how ever the lr3 version will have much more pronounced effect on insulin sensitivity as it has a systemic effect due to its long half life. The DES version has more of an autocrine (local) effect so its general metabolic impact (from which the insulin sensitivity increase stems) is lower

Sciroxx's picture

Good info here, I've been asked numerous time on this subject, so just bumpint it

Soppyhag's picture

Karl,
If I'm running HGH 2 iu twice daily, should I still limit my time on IGF 1 Lr3 to 1 month on 1 off? Running DES with HGH but only adding pwo/pwo.

Sciroxx's picture

Yes the basic protocol for the lr3 is 4 weeks on 4 weeks off (50-200mcg a day). There is an alternative to run it at a lower dosage (15-30mcg a day) for longer periods, especially in the goal is to increase insulin sensitivity

The DES version may be run longer and usually I would run it for legging body parts year round

Sciroxx's picture

Hereinafter are a couple of other scientific based data to support the unique synergistic effect of GH and IGF1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
------------conclusions -
GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
-----------results and conclusions
RESULTS:
Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.

Sciroxx's picture

I've been asked frequently by customers whether it's better to use GH or IGF1 ? which leads me to bump this thread.
There is no one better then the other, if need to choose one of them, based on our vast experience, GH is a more fundamental PED then IGF1 - indeed GH exerts måçuch of his clinical effect by triggering IGF1 release into the circulation, but still some of his metabolic and anabolic effects are done directly on different metabolic mechanism without IGF1 mediation, and it's important to remember that GH also exerts IGF secretion (paracrine) within the cell level as well.

Here is some scientific literature which reviews the synergistic effect between GH and IGF -

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8853443

GH may exert metabolic effects either directly or indirectly through increased production of IGF-I. GH administration increases circulating IGF-I levels via stimulation of hepatic synthesis and secretion of IGF-I; it may also enhance local IGF-I synthesis, which exerts paracrine or autocrine effects. Figure 2 summarizes the metabolic effects of GH and IGF-I. Administration of GH and IGF-I in adult humans has been demonstrated to enhance protein anabolism. Combined administration of GH and IGF-I was observed to be more anabolic than either IGF-I or GH alone. Evidence is presented that protein accretion results mainly from direct effects of GH on tissues; additional indirect effects via IGF-I production are also likely. Administration of GH has been reported to produce carbohydrate intolerance with elevated plasma insulin levels, resulting from insulin resistance. in contrast, insulin sensitivity increased during administration of IGF-I, which exerts hypoglycaemic effects even with concomitant suppression of insulin secretion. A major direct metabolic effect of GH is to increase fat mobilization and oxidation, and thereby to reduce total body fat; there is no evidence that IGF-I acts directly on adipose tissue in vivo. GH administration results in sodium retention via stimulation of Na-K-ATPase. It is suggested that part of the effects of GH on tubular function (e.g. phosphate reabsorption) are mediated via IGF-I. Energy expenditure may be increased by administration of either GH or relatively high doses of IGF-I. One of the reasons for this phenomenon is an increase in lean body mass; GH may increase energy expenditure additionally be enhancing the production of T3 and by increasing lipid oxidation

Makwa's picture

I like taking both of them. There is a great synergistic effect when doing so.

Londoncity90's picture

I pm you karl can you reply pls bro

Sciroxx's picture

Sure

Sciroxx's picture

You refer to GH and IGF1 only on working days?

Takes consistent daily therapy to create the proper systemic effect of GH (for instance you probably know that takes a couple of weeks of daily usage of GH to achieve peak serum IGF1 levels and sustain it. Just consider that the serum IGF1 levels are a result of mainly liver and kidney secretion, GH, however GH triggers IGF secretion from various tissues, above all muscle tissues, so really advise to use the GH daily and consistently)

IGF1 is actually used only on training days by some protocols, especially the IGF1-DES

Nattyboomba's picture

I'm fascinated with this. I plan on running IGF1-des during pct in a few weeks once I finish up this cycle, largely to experiment with it's effectiveness in helping one keep their gains while coming off cycle.

I have no experience with IGF1 in any of it's forms, but after reading as much as I possible could, I chose a recombinantly produced IGF1. My main concern is unwanted intestinal growth. I chose DES because of this, as it seems, at least theoretically to be less likely to cause unwanted growth (although there are opinions and anecdotal evidence supporting every perspective there is).

So, I guess, my question is this;
Is there a dosing threshold that seems to be where most unwanted growth begins when combining HGH HIGH and IGF1?

Sciroxx's picture

Refer to my reply few posts down from here regarding dosages, you may contact me, as usually for proper advice better have some background on your body and experience

e9soldier's picture

Do you mix the two together in the same pin? I've done that with other peptides with no problem.

Sciroxx's picture

Possible to mix, but I would injectt he GH sub-Q on belly area and the IGF1 intrumuscular

Jay Pee's picture

Few questions here bud if that's cool..

So when would you recommend dosing Hgh igf des and lr3?
Would you lower doses if all is used in combination?
If so what would you recommend per pound body weight for each compound?
if subjective what for first time user in combination?
was thinking using in combination with pct.

This subject is interesting to say the least thanks for posting look forward to hearing about this subject+

Sciroxx's picture

I would use GH on empty stomach first thing in the morning 45-60 mins before breakfastand post exercise, but of course there other options, you may follow many posted protocols, experience and conclude according to your daily routine a results.

I personally have seen better results with IGF1-lr post workout (it has long half life so one injection per day would do it), and the DES preworkout into working muscles bilaterally,

dosages are a matter of experience, goals and budget of course, but certainly possible to build clinically-effective and cost effective stack of IGF1+GH as you'll be able to lower dosages/cost in each and get sufficient results with lower sides

I've seen pros on 24iu of pharma GH, while some individual experience descent results with 4iu a day for years,
IGF1 is also a matter of trial and error, as in many individuals especially with GH lower dosages do the trick