Testicular Atrophy
I have seen a huge amount of conflicting information on this topic and want to provide my opinion.
The primary problem is elevated estradiol.
-After puberty, 80-90% of testicle size is directly attributable to spermatogenesis.
-2 testicular cell types - sertoli and leydig.
-Leydig cells are stimulated by LH (leutinizing hormone). Negative feedback occurs when estradiol is elevated.
-The sertoli cells manufacture sperm and estradiol and are stimulated by FSH (folicle stimulating hormone). Negative feedback occurs when estradiol is elevated.
Both the leydig and sertoli cells experience negative feedback from higher levels of testosterone.
To minimize testicular atrophy, manage estradiol. The optimal level falls in the range of 22-30 pg/ml.
EDIT:
I deleted my comment that hcg does not stimulate the sertoli cells. Apparently it does have that capability. My extensive personal experience is that hcg is very effective in maintaining leydig cell function. I have have seen little to no real effectiveness in hcg to restore testicular size. Managing estradiol has been very effective.
Thanks for the comment Hooker!
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MY wevos where HUGE before my first run. They were literally like eggs. Now they are about the size of a silly putty container. But trust after my next run, Will be Clomid, Nolva, Letro, HCG, Triptorelin. I WILL need all of that. Its Nuts buy hey.
AnonI love silly putty!!
HCG is Lh
It's benefit to any run IMO
I also have experience very low to almost non existence shrinkage with test only runs although Aromasin is on board and E is controlled with ON
AND
I have an emergency fertigyn 5000 for if any issues ever do arise
Although I'm off now and everything has stayed the same while transitions
This may not be typical results and do not think its not gonna happen because it is a KNOWN Issue
If you use 250Iu x2-3 per week it should cover you or at end of cycle do 1000iu EOD for twenty days , or the common
I think HCG is a luxury to have on hand
Only use real human grade European /American not Chinese generics
+1 for the human grade reference, realistically for any PCT items and ancillaries. Guys have no idea how stressful it is when you don't recover from a cycle and you don't know if its because your research chem was bunk, or you just always had terrible levels. Scary really. UGL gear is one thing but you don't want to experiment with recovery. Funny thing is pharm grade ancillaries and SERMs aren't that much more expensive than research chems from some sites. Sometimes even cheaper
What is your typical test dose?
600 Enanthate or CYP per week;
with 50-100mg Prop Eod!
GATORGEAR
Somewhat off-topic...but I've never actually experienced testicular shrinkage on cycle, thus ive never used HCG. Even up to a gram of Test.
This is absolutely not off topic. A post like this helps describe what appears to be an anomaly and a possible opportunity to learn something that i may have missed.
Are you aggressively managing estradiol? If not, what is your diet and cycle like?
Never used an ai on cycle ( in fact the roidsupplier promo going on will be my first time using one). Diet was pretty standard bodybuilding stuff. I was at university and had access to pretty much everything with a unlimited meal plan. But mostly consisted of chicken breast everyday, rice or pasta for carbs, fish, burger patties without the buns, legumes, that sort of thing. Cycles aside from shitty pro hormones I've used we're Test e and dbol for 12 weeks. Dbol was kick start for 3 or 4 weeks then ran test the remainder. At one point as an experiment I upped the test dose to 1 gram for roughly 2 weeks to see sides experienced ( which I received none except slight blood pressure increase). Second cycle was test e again with a pro hormone kick start 10 weeks. No HCG was used as well and PCT was clomid 4 weeks (also interesting to note was that the clomid was bunk research Chemical which I found out when I went to get blood drawn 3weeks into PCT. was nowhere near recovered and nowhere near exogeneously administered levels and for some odd reason I experienced no sides of hypogonadism)
its my understanding that once exogenous hormones ebter the body, the hpta essentially senses this surplus and therefore no longer needs to send out lh and fsh in an attempt to restore homeostasis or at least not create more of a surplus. the body will always fight to restore balance, and when the lh and fsh stops being sent out, those 2 cells in our nuts which produce test and sperm (leydig and sertoli respectively) obvi stop doin what they do. the physical manifestation of these cells shuttng down is atrophy because they literally shrink due to inactivity.
so the way i understand it, atrophy is a result of lh and fsh no longer being sent out by hpta due to exo hormones being introduced, not high estro levels. i could be wrong but despite all the conflicting info out there regarding hcg, the cause of atrophy seemed to he pretty unanimous in all my research. i could totally be misinformed though, but im pretty confident in this one
First off, none of us really completely understand the endocrine system. This, in part, is due to the multiple variables associated with the interaction of more than one hormone.
I welcome any critical comments. As far as I'm concerned be as critical as you think is appropriate. I am here to pass on years of study and experience and in the process learn as much as possible from you guys.
So, I think everything you indicated is correct with one minor differance in my case. Excessive estradiol seems to inhibit more and result more side effects than testosterone. My take is that estradiol seems to be the primary inhibitor at test doses less than 1 gram per week. When doses increase above this threshold, testosterone also has a minor inhibiting effect on fsh and the greatest inhibitory effect on LH.
The bottom line in my view is this. If you use low dose hcg (250-500 IU twice per week) and manage estradiol in the 20-30 pg/ml range, then test dose seems to have no effect on testicular atrophy.
very well explained and detailed my friend, with a ripe attitude for learning to match also mixed in there. not saying im the one to teach, just that i noticed it and wanted to give you props for that. i read once that the day we are no longer teachable, we cease to grow as human beings. off topic but kinda cool i think.
i missed the part about incorporating hcg into the your estro control/atrophy protocol, and couldnt agree more with this most recent post. 250 iu's for me e4d coupled with about 5mg of aromasin ed (im very sensitive to its effects and i say about because it liquid) completely prevents any noticable atrophy whatsoever in me.
ive noticed though since starting the aromasin and finally finding my sweet spot (pain in the ass for me!) i dont need to pin the hcg but once a week now, which is due i believe to aromasin having beneficial properties if im not mistaken to stimulating lh and fsh production. i was very hesitant to start "experimenting" and intentionally skipping shots, but i dont know any other way to truly figure my body out other than through trial and error. im glad i did though because my goals are in part to always achieve maximum results from minimal dosing.
Im not looking to start a pissing contest here but I definitely have my estradiol levels (and any other levels for that matter) in check and balanced for what my body needs personally. And the first reason I ever incorporated HCG into a cycle was to help with atrophy and restore size. Every member here at Eroids is totally different and reacts very different with the various compounds we all use. From my personal experience I have to say even with my estradiol level at my bodys effective level I've had atrophy issues. And when I tried HCG it did just what I hoped it would. And I'll say it again...I'm NOT calling you out on any pary of your post or personal experiences, I'm just saying what works for me. Be safe, stay healthy.
AnonI have had the same experience as you . I dont have a problem managing e2 but if I dont use HCG my balls do shrink up. The results from an HCG shot are often noticable within hours .
Im happy someone else out there is just like me. As I said before, we're all different and react differently to different compounds. Just happy I wasn't the only weirdo out there..jk brother. Thanks for the support and positive feed back.
RustyhookerTRT clinics and folks using it if needed beg to differ. Misuse or overuse I dont agree with but during hard or long cycles its an option for faster recovery. Readup Llewellens books, trt clinics advice as well as the trt forums where guys with non-functioning gonads use it simply for asthetic purposes.
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RustyhookerHcg has been a big debate for quite a long time. I believe from cycles ran that unless you're pyshing til ya have severe shrinkage then hold off. And if raising fsh/lh was of no importance then we'd need no pct. But back to cycles, it's another "false signal" so be careful in your use/misuse.
I concur with use misuse.
I look at this from the HRT position. Low dose HCG keeps you up and operational. High dose desensitizes and is counter productive.
Thankfully I don't have the pct issue to deal with, particularly as low androgen levels are associated with increased aging, mortality and morbidity.
Right but desensitization doesn't necessarily come from high dosage. It can come from prolonged use as well. Truthfully I think people just use HCG for cosmetic reasons. I don't see how using HCG can make recovery an easier if HCG has a inhibitory effect on the HPTA. Haven't seen a study on how it does either.
I completely agree on your view of desensitization with prolonged use.
I believe the hypothesis is that is takes longer to restart inhibited leydig cells than it does the hypothalamus/pituitary. My best guess on basis of this position is that since testosterone (especially long ester molecules) and it's metabolites (estradiol) can take a while to be fully metabolized and will continue to inhibit the system, you will recover faster if you restart with hcg as it will clear in a few days of the last dose.
I haven't seen any studies on this either.
I believe you are right in that regard. Sometimes too much information on the Internet doesn't help. Especially with all the bro science lol
RustyhookerThats why the vets suggest using it during cycle as needed and the doses we suggest. It DOES give you a faster recovery if properly used
But is there evidence supporting that claim? You can't just make a statement like that with no confidence intervals, no critical values, no p-values, etc. that's why I'm asking for studies showing sufficient evidence to those claims. I have yet to see one.
I use it during cycle and even blast it at the end... I know this is total "bro science" but frankly what do you think will produce more testosterone.. the shriveled raisins or the gigantic nuts.. I had better recovery using hcg during my cycles.. But it's personal preference .. we all have our special pct's.. at the end of the day any of us could end up on TRT after ANY cycle even if we do EVERYTHING correctly
RustyhookerOne thing for certain is we all react differently. And finding your personal rescue combo is everything in this game.
Wardi77right on bro!