posted Tue, 02/12/2019 - 15:27
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Just a quick question for you folks. Does NPP or Deca actually help with shoulder issues or does it just mask the pain?
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Just a quick question for you folks. Does NPP or Deca actually help with shoulder issues or does it just mask the pain?
Rustyhookerhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1102048/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/125133/?i=2&from=/1102048/related
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/61389/?i=4&from=/1102048/related
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21818626/?i=5&from=dianabol%20and%...
bol only trials ^^^^^
LMFAO
Its a solid +2 from me Rusty!!!
.
RustyhookerI dont print yellow. Unsure how. But this was cited by the med researchers
Compared with the placebo period, on methandienone the subjects gained weight (mean 3-3 kg +/- 0-6 kg) and accumulated a disproportionately large amount of potassium (420+/-68 mmol); the increase in weight was confined to the lean part of the body, and the muscles increased in size.
Im sure as with all research it can be extrapolated in a hundred different ways. But for me...i got strong on it.
yeah potassium excessively, nitrogen too, and water, but there are other things happening that later studies found were accumulating too, but they couldnt figure out what it all was, just not muscle itself
ages ago i shared a paper with you, it was a follow up to the ones you posted where they tried to figure it out
anyways, regardless of all the bullshit, the absolute best property for dbol is the strength
and like you say, only need 20-25mg pd
Hypotham.
Piturity.
Adrenal.
Cell signaling/ acth.
Endocrine disruption.
Hypopituitarism.
Cortisol.
These are the answers to research.
Rustyhookerhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854183/
Protein, nitrogen, collagen....breakdown uses, byproducts etc etc
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/methandrostenolone#section=The...
Dbol and nitrogen retention... 'Mechanism of Action
Anabolic steroids reverses catabolic processes and negative nitrogen balance by promoting protein anabolism and stimulating appetite if there is concurrently a proper intake of calories and proteins. /Anabolic Steroids/
Thomson.Micromedex. Drug Information for the Health Care Professional. 25th ed. Volume 1. Plus Updates. Content Reviewed by the United States Pharmacopeial Convention, Inc. Greenwood Village, CO. 2005., p. 141
And if you want to read what steroids do at the cellular level
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2482764/
Given this is on the back of a conversation about dianabol and muscle building, I see nothing in here whatsoever that discusses dianabol specifically and how it either does or does build muscle.
Can you, instead of posting these non relevant links, point to something specific?
E.g. an article, regardless of the century it was produced in, that does the usual scans of the body or what have you to assess myotropic action or actual muscle building?
Got anything relevant like that?
RustyhookerOh...you must mean the medical post right there with the excerpt in quotes....relevant like its.... medical research ??
Maybe in red its easier to see. The link is already posted as well
'Mechanism of Action Anabolic steroids reverses catabolic processes and negative nitrogen balance by promoting protein anabolism and stimulating appetite if there is concurrently a proper intake of calories and proteins. /Anabolic Steroids/. Thomson.Micromedex. Drug Information for the Health Care Professional. 25th ed. Volume 1. Plus Updates. Content Reviewed by the United States Pharmacopeial Convention, Inc. Greenwood Village, CO. 2005., p. 141'
Unless the pharmacopeial chemistry has changed since 2005. I mean....ciba created in near 50 years ago and changing the chemistry only creates a new drug like eq, etc.
LOL Nah, I mean EXACTLY unlike that quote!!!!
So again, as you seem to really have a problem understanding the question... and Rusty honestly this is not THAT hard to understand...
Regarding dianabol, specifically, can you show us something, such as a journal article or study or what have you, regardless of the century it was produced in, that does the usual scans of the body or what have you to assess myotropic action or actual muscle building?
Because you know... they have been done and found that the gainzzzzzz are probably not muscle related.
You might also take some time to tell us all about your dianabol only cycles, how you recommend the kids do them, given they are generally so short and build so much muscle.... etc. Break it down for us big man.
RustyhookerLmao! If the medical professionals who made those links arent clear enough, then no level of explanation will suffice. If your phd in all of this trumps over 50 years of documentation then id suggest you publish a book.
The entire scope of using steroids is for muscle repair. If you cannot understand glycogen load and nitrogen....theres nothing else left to debate.
they arent talking about dianabol though are they?!
Lets talk about dianabol?? No?
Rusty you are so close to the aswers man!!! so close!
You can't say it any better than that! The fact anyone can say it doesn't work as a steroid that builds muscle and makes you stronger is an F'in joke :))
Thinking nitrogen rentention is muscle is the joke bro!
jayiskif you use studies of people that are sick and dont lift.., off course it wont add muscle.
lets see some studies on PL, strongmen and BB that lift heavy weight and do compound movements and see the true results of muscle growth from dbol.
look if someone is just going through the motions at the gym and doing some dumbbells and machines they are not going to gain muscle from dbol. Claim they dont want to get injured or some bullshit. Post up your training program for the next 6 months.., oh wait you just go in the gym and do whatever you feel like to case a quick pump and look pretty.
they just dont want to feel the pain from heavy weight that tears muscle fibers and have the passion and mental fortitude to put the work in.
hey if you're not a PL or strongman at least train like Arnold and those guys.., what they call power building now. You have no excuse unless you are prepping to step on stage as a BB in a comp.
I’m sorry but I don’t agree Jay. There is a good forum over in the advanced group that Exoticnfit started on this very subject. There is a guy who doesn’t lift heavy anymore and hasn’t for sometime and applies tension and high total volume based training to achieve frankly astounding results. I do think it matters as to the base you have and how smart you are with your training.
Make no mistake I do lift heavy for periods. I’ve just come out of such a block. But at almost 45 “heavy” is relative for me now. My body just can’t handle the strain like it could 10 years ago when I was lifting much heavier weights. And maybe why I’m carrying a few injuries (nothing major) that tend to flare up when I’m doing strength blocks. I spend most of my time with much lighter weights now and am learning to apply much more of Exoticnfit approach and I am seeing good results and still building muscle.
I do agree that to build a base (of strength, power and muscle) which can be used to build on you will need to spend time lifting heavy and focusing on true power and engaging the CNS. Loads of these guys walking around with these impressive physiques but the minute they stop their cycle their impressiveness is ever declining at an exponential rate. This is the surest way to not hold onto gains. I am coaching at least one guy who has learnt this the hard way and is now putting in the time to do this properly and he has to get a bit “fat” along the way. He’s also pretty much fucked his HPTA from running stupid stack when he had no business to and has made the task infinitely harder than it should have been. Worst thing is he paid someone to advise him on doing this.
What about a study of trained athletes taking dianabol only?
Would you accept that?
(this is specific to dianabol now)
Hardcore Balls to the wall heavy lifting is where its at ....Real world results are all that count.
How do you think it would go down walking into Westside Barbell club and telling them all that Dbol doesn't work? ...
RustyhookerIm thinking both you guys are talking pounds vs volume. I believe both are important depending on your goals.
Ive watched lee labrada train fast with volume and hes a big sized midget. It didnt work for me personally but were all different. Then you got guys like Guy sisternino....friggin machine on both pounds and volume. Id say its which route gets ya there. Even switching back n forth to shock new growth.
We are both always talking in terms of strength gains rusty, muscle size along the way is great as a result of training that way also though. The muscle thickness that can be obtained just from doing sets of doubles and triples can be awesome also if you are willing to put 110% effort into each set and lift heavy.
jayiskThe reason I brought up poundage is dbol is great for increasing strength. Therefore, allowing one to train heavier and harder and tearing more muscle fibers.
I do agree volume will work also. But the issue is intensity. For dbol to work for muscle growth the intensity in training needs to be there.
Lee Labrada and the old school guys trained very intense and hard. They had a great work ethic.
You will not grow muscle from dbol if you just go in the gym at chase "the pump." Which means you put no thought into ones programming and train with no intensity. That type of pump wears off once the workout is done. Resulting in no muscle growth.
Typically a PL will train by increasing poundage on the 3 main lifts until peaking for a meet or a gym PR.
In the beginning of this the poundage % are lower on the 3 main lifts and the volume is higher. As well as more accessory/supplemental lifts that are programmed in to improve the 3 main lifts by bringing up weaker muscles.
As the PL program gets closer to peaking and the poundage % go up the volume goes down and accessory/supplemental lifts are limited or cut out.
I dont expect BB to be PL. But people need to have goals and programming to match that.
Intensity needs to be there regardless if one wants to achieve higher #'s or improved physique.
Again it comes down to work ethic. Which..,as in society in general.., is a thing of the past. And laziness and excuses is the new norm.
This is not meant toward anyone with health issues or injuries that would keep them from maintaining high levels of intensity in training.
Or anyone that is just trying to stay healthy.
But i see way too many people running a lot of gear and PED's..,having no training goals.., and yr after yr look the same and remain weak.
It seems to be acceptable to regularly drink & smoke wee* on cycle nowadays also. No proper commitment to training whatsoever.
jayisksame as having a "lean build" and going into prison and trying to flex your abs as if that means anything.
unless it is for a women and not a bunch of dudes.
I’m sure Ed would back you up on this statement- no homo!
nandrolone doesnt do anything like this. if you add it to a test cycle, test is left redundant and will be aromatised to estrogen. the estrogen will cause an amount of water retention. water retention around the joints will help mask your issues. It is not therapeutic and will mask a growing problem. No bueno.
It definatly masks ( deca )
Cytokines.
We naturally have both Anti imflammatory and imflmmatory ones in our bodies.
- for some reason that im sure you will find deca increases the " antis " in our system and basically what they do is travel around us and gather around areas of trauma and injury therefore releiving the pain.
The same thing happens even if we cut out selves or something they rush and travel to the affected area.
I’m on a Deca cycle at the moment and my left elbow is equally as fucked-up and painful as it always is. If anything its even worse but that comes from some very heavy low bar squatting the last five weeks. I’ve never felt Deca to be therapeutic or pain masking in any way even when running high test. I keep my estro very well controlled so that may be why. I’m checking bloods next week to be sure my estro is not running too low which it shouldn’t be on 750mg Test E, 450mg Deca, 50mg Provi and 25mg Aro but you never know.
Cytokines are complex.
They are a form of proteins that react through cell signalling and receptors.
When we look at response through steroid use is that we get an upregulation of the good ones that react and gather around imflammation.
This is partly due but not limited to certain types of receptors being interferred with, our nutrient uptake is higher therefore our immune system is stronger and also our red blood cell count increases, they are the very basic functions that trigger the response, the brain, cns, liver, kidneys, pancreas, endocrine system, skeletal, tissue, hormones and lipids all play roles and of course they are all involved in the use of steroids.
Its hard to type about but if you look at the blood cells and how we get an increase in rbc (good cells) its similar with cytokines we get an increase in the good ones, they are part of our bodies immune system and a defense mechanism, with the presence of a stronger healthier immune system ( nutrient uptake) etc etc we see increase in these mechanisms and we also see a quicker response or reaction from them.
They gather around areas of trauma/ imflammation and fight the imflammatory ones off that are causing the pain and either take over therefore masking the pain or they atleast fight to create an even balance.
Obviously once we cease the steroid we lose the advantages of these functions therefore start losing the extra ones that help us, then we are basically back to where we were if not worse due to the added trauma we put it through whilst training more intensley on the cycle.
Our resident guru viking has interesting comments around the place, he swears by deca/ eq for joint cushioning affects again look at eq traits rbc etc etc.
With your cycle i dont know frequency of aromasin 25mgs is alot.
Remember you do need estrogen for strength and power, to high fkd to low fkd in saying that
I would say that isnt your issue i would say your injury is just fucked, i dont know if its bone, muscle, nerve, etc etc
If its not an imflammation issue you wont get any relief.
I would be getting it seen too before permanent damage, you not a newbie.
I would go to a dr.
Thanks for the detailed explanation mate. To be honest I know exactly what the injury is. It’s not new and flares up from time to time especially when doing heavy low bar squats given I have some range of motion issues in my shoulders which loads my elbows more than they should be in an already awkward position. The result is some tendonitis.
Given the view of Deca and inflammation etc. in theory I should be finding some relief which I’m not. Well perhaps I am and off the cycle I would be in much much more pain. It’s kind of moot now as this phase of training is over and my weights are a quite a bit lower to allow for more reps and more total volume and hence more muscle growth. I’ll need to research the science some more to see just how these processes work and if I buy into it given theory v evidence. All that’s said no amount of science is going to be perfectly applyable to what we do, doses we run and chems we stack, food we eat and how we train, rest and recover. In the end of the day it will come down to personal experiences on much of this and countless other topics and why having guys like you, me, Giardap and of course Brother Viking is so important and what makes this site truly beautiful. Especially when we can express our views in this postitive and respectful manner.
On the question of aro. 25mg per day split is actually not that high a dose. IrishMack wrote some good forums on this - https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/aromasin-you... but my own experiments backed up by bloodwork have shown that it is possible to run too low at times on aro even though the science would seem to indicate otherwise. And again why blood testing to confirm for each individual is necessary on almost every cycle especially the more complex the stack is. Mine right now is right up there and not for public discussion. Suffice to say I pulled bloods this morning so will have some answers later on this very point.
I do completely agree with everything you’ve said on estrogen and it’s importance and it is alway too of my mind in terms of careful management when running any cycle.
+2 from me my friend - Respect!
Get bloods done.
Then reevaluate.
Fact is inflammation plays a huge role in everything we do.
We need it to grow.
Its complex.
Trust me i just watched my grandfather die from cystic fibrosis of the lungs, essentially cytokines killed him.
I know what im talking about.
Cells, signals, receptors, pathways of functions etc etc.
The answer to everything related to both tren and deca is cell signals being disrupted causing "plie ups" followed by secretion of certain hormones and cessation of others.
Stress hormone cortisol is what we found nearly 8 years ago.
Its side effects are the same as a condition called cushings disease exactly the same process and side effects which is anything from moon face, ed, night sweats, insomnia etc etc. Its also what causes vision problems in high dose clomid therapy.
Just without the tumor.
Obviously lots more to it.
Anyone should just research and understand the " indirect" pathways in the process of cells, receptors and there signalling.
Piturity and adrenal disruptions.
Etc etc.
There is always an answer if you look in the right place.
Cheers bro.
Rustyhooker^^^^^^^this !!
What's up bruddah
Well.... everything I have read on nandrolone shows increase in inflammatory cytokines and also ROS
The whole AAS are bad for the kidneys thing comes from this
In terms of testing, I have taken nand up to 3g and it doesnt mask anything. I have used nand solo and no help for the joints. It is a myth. Add some test and boom.
estrogen does it via water retention and people think its the deca
It is the very same with tren.... the lipids that get flipped, the cardio issues, the CV issues.... it's all oxidative stress.
Here is a thought, could there be a therapeutic dose of estrogen??? at a level low enough to work???
After my deca only cycle, I am fucking dying to try out a deca plus estrogen cycle (remember where you heard it first mate!! lol ;-) )
what about the increases of collagen synthesis that deca said to provide doesn't that help ? or just bro science ?
I am going to put my hands up here, I honestly do not remember the details but I only read 1 or 2 studies on AAS and collagen. I cannot remember the details fully.
But what I do know is that one of the biggest synthesizers of collagen is consumption of collagen.
Its odd that way usually (from an AAS perspective or GH etc), usually there is a negative feedback loop, but with collagen as a supplement it is the opposite. Which is great.
But what does it do for join pain/inflammation, collagen that is...
Check the arthritis studies or even news and see what you make of it?
That was what I was looking at, separately to AAS when I was trying to figure the value of increasing collagen synthesis.
Let me know what you think
so drinking collagen works ?? damn I thought it was a scam for old people lol...they advertise it in tv pretty much non stop and I thought its crap ...glad I learned something new ! I will try to find the studies about collagen synthesis ..it was on rats though with a dose of 3 mg per kg of body weight ...deca increases cs for 270% boldenone 340% and they mention anavar as well but can't remember %
RustyhookerDeca, anavar and eq boost collagen.
it works to get the body synthesising more collagen which is good
but then it doesnt actually seem to do anything
the reumathoid arthritis studies (like our join pain issues, but on steroids lol) show collagen does sweet fuck all for pain and inflammation
which is annoying
have a read of some of the studies yourself though.
I might be wrong, but you might find dianabol to be one of the best for joints... dianabol builds zero muscle, but it does increase lean fat free mass... they just never fully found where or what it was it increased if i reember correctly. might be some newer studies out there. but dianabol, from a FFM perspective could be worth a look.
Deca, nope. Ran it to 3g never did a thing for me, despite increases in the good stuff.
Dianabol does build muscle as it causes massive nitrogen retention & amino acid shuttling into the muscle along with glycogen. Arnold Swarzeneggar & Franco Columbo used it for that reason, along with myself.
RustyhookerYup!! Nitrogen retention plus the added water load fills the cells. Exactly why dbol gives that fast strength boost, pumps and recovery.
Imo...folks just use too much dbol and think the sides must be present. 15mg split by 4hrs dosing with big protein carb meal...see what happens.
Nope it doesnt pal. Not a fibre. Hence the dianabol yoyo.
Read the cachexia oriented study on it. They specifically looked to see what LBM was building up.
No muscle... not a dickie bird. Check the study, you will be surprised.
Nitrogen Retention, potassium, glycogen, water retention etc. etc. etc. are not equal to muscle building.
RustyhookerLmao!!! You seem to enjoy skipping out ever action in the middle because it somehow looks cool.
Glycogen load...just like running creatine fills up the cell with added fluid. That added fluid boosts strength and recovery. That strength and recovery is exactly how muscle is built. Or you might as well go back to preaching that using steroids and sitting on the cough adds muscles.
Anyone on this site that can say there was no instant strength boosts from dbol? Anyone? Where do you think that came from? Imagination? Go bump dbol 15mg a day split by 3. If you dont get strong as hell quickly then you got fake dbol.
LOL@you
Man, you are hilarious!
So now you think glycogen retention as well as nitrogen retention = muscle!
Wow!
If you ever switched off, you would know it isnt, but hey man, have at it, you keep believing what you believe!!!
To build muscle it takes trauma.
Contracting muscle fibres get torn down then the healing process begins.
Each time we break down and repair the fibres they grow back bigger.
Again this process all revolves around inflammation.
Dbol and any steroid result in this process being quicker wether thats from nutrient uptake, protein synthesis, shuttling, nitrogen or fluid its all apart of the process.
Amino and nutrient filled blood and intramuscular water are transported and retained in that torn down muscle at a quicker, higher, purer and potent concentration to a natural athlete.
Cell signalling and there actions can easily be 100 times more plentiful in an athlete using aas up to 4 hours after workout/ excersise.
The uptake of aminos is dramatic throughout that process.
Gained tissue or fibres is gained muscle.
Fluid is fluid.
Takes more than trauma, you know that.
Look I dunno what else to say to you, other than this; check the study they did specifically on dianabol in weight lifters to see whether it built muscle or not.
have a read, you would enjoy it, its not black and white and covers topics you definitely like. it is eye opening and explains the dianabol yoyo to a great extent, but not fully.
so in a nutshell drinking collagen does nothing!!
as far as dbol ffm it mast have something to do with the glycogen depletion that it does ?
Bone mineral density.
Nandro is a PR.
Its also a precursor or "pro" meaning it isnt nandrolone until it goes through your system in multiple pathways, im not getting into any debates about wether different receptors interfere with others or which ones are activated first, its common knowledge that the more powerful drug has stronger binding affinity therefore making weaker compounds be less utilised and then have free " what ever floating" therefore converting.
"PR" is a factor and nandro is one, it can and will cause gyno, its purpose in women is to get the mammary glands ready for breast feeding.
It does the same to us as we have the same yet we dont need to feed but we will start growing tits and lactating from pr.
I do agree about less side affects having test lower in terms of aromatize, acne, sweats, mood things like that but not in terms of shutdown, gyno or sexual dysfunction.
The "pr" will cause "hyg" which means shut down which means all kinds of possible sides.
Test is used to counteract the side effect of our natural test being shut "pr" is basically an estrogen in itself and it will travel around tissue and blood and with nandrolone being a "prodrug" or " precursor" and having to basically convert to be in its active form it does this traveling process each time it is injected ( like a 17aa passing through liver to survive type process) and of course overall as we all preach half life of drug is key yet not many people are taking into account the delivery time from the site and the conversion in hours aswell as the spikes and release.
Things like cholesterol play another big role due to those reasons.
You done well with your experiment and its awesome, it worked for you, it doesnt for everyone including myself.
Deca converts at about 20 percent estrogen.
By itself will cause disater in most.
You still need to function as a man.
Ancillaries are plentful.
Nandrolone is a progestin, not a progesterone. Progestins are far weaker than progesterone. As you said the faster hormone wins the race. Pretty simple.
nandrolone doesnt cause gyno
nandolone doesnt cause lactation
nandrolone doesnt cause increase in proactin
nandrolone doesnt cause increases in estrogen
nandrolone doesnt cause sexual dysfunction
These are facts not opinions. end of story!
Do you remember we debated this about 3 years ago and I said I would prove it to you?
Well part 3 of that research is published in general now.
These are facts Bro.
Read it bro, part one is this discussion, part 2 is the clinical/research evidence that what you are saying is mostly wrong and part 3 is a personal experiment with nandrolone only cycles and nandrolone up to 3 grams...
the experiment proved the proof, but in the supra physiological AAS weightlifter's perspective.
Its all there man. Dunno what else to say about it
I did not mention prolactin.
I mentioned pr not prl.
The way my comments have been written are in a way of leaving it open to be researched and checked for the answers to be found.......
You are one individual that studied it.
You done gyno home surgery on yourself so the gyno part of thing is null....
Please note the way in which i have written.
Please note " pathways ".
Im not saying you are wrong, im saying you experienced no sides.
The pathways and the way in which it delivers and transports is crucial and the ways in which it indirectly and then directly converts and triggers or causes these side affects.
You are skipping complex and important processes and functions in your research, alot.
Brain, androgen receptors, dht, dhea, liver, kidney, cholesterol, skeletal, blood and blood cells, gonads, prostate, nervous system all play unique roles in how the process and chain of function in conversion.
The chains are the complex part.
Wether its pr prl estro ar etc etc they are all connected full stop, wether something is as it is or wether its converted, or synthesised from synthetic sources is the fact.
In other words on paper it may say certain things arent possible which is correct about that particular substance standalone in the bottle or vial but that does not consider all the complex chain of events it triggers and causes once it enters our system.
It is the same with tren... on paper no aromatisation but its what happens in our body once administered.
It doesnt even matter of a receptor is activated it just has to be signalled or intetferred with to trigger a whole chain of reactions through out our whole system, meaning in our bodies confusion from a synthetic foreighn substance a whole complex chain of responses occur and start trying to correct, defend and homeostasis which causes havoc and im even talking about cortisol ( stress )
Directly or indirectly it happens.
Anadrol on paper another one but how many people get gyno from it?
You have gotten it crooked Flash. Half of what you are saying is actually discussed all the way throughout the research! If you read it you would see that you are basically agreeing with what the research and experiment say, but then you make wrong conclusions. Read it man, you would find it all interesting.
What you are talking about are called cascade effects. Also what you are talking about are how strange things happen with substances like anadrol seemingly unexplained. You are saying that I am skipping complex actions. But the truth is in fact the opposite. I explain the cascades all the way throughout the research. I also explain how the seemingly odd can happen (even testosterone can weakly bind androgen receptors).
The research is a meta research... this means it is a summary of (as much as possible) of existing research to date. Medical research, clinical research, pharmaco* research and so on.
I dunno what else to say man, the stuff you said above supports the research rather than opposes it.
Yes mate.
Also i hope im not coming across as rude or condecending because im not.
I do agree with parts yes hence why i said im not saying you are wrong.
Im just saying there is alot more to it.
curious to hear how was the strength gains on 3 g of deca ? must be something else!!