I'm man enough to admit mistakes
Well here goes, ended my cycle a few weeks ago, some long acting compounds are obviously still in my body and I'm on TRT and the ancillaries. I'm college educated (nuclear medicine) which sounds more impressive than it is, I'm currently in property management because the money is better. I've taken classes on nutrition, and felt, well feel knowledgeable. I wanted more out of this last cycle, while on the orals in the beginning i pissed off the wife, she's not into muscles, I puffed up nice. Long story short, I'm getting compliments, even today, I'm having lean showing that I NEVER have. But I've been tired. Exhausted. For my bodyweight I should be consuming 4000 calories daily to maintain, 4500 for gains that will stay. I'm well below this. Even though I'm in the best shape of my life, I'm not happy. Has anyone ran into similiar issues? I post bloods, BP results, maybe I'm an asshole for feeling this way and need a dose of reality, but as hard as I'm working, it's a bit frustrating. Thanks for having this fourum for advice, it's greatly appreciated.
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It's pretty well-known that you can feel depressed after a long cycle. You have upset your natural hormone balance with exogenous compounds, and now you have taken them away, so your body is struggling to re-establish homeostasis. Do a strict PCT and wait, it can take months to get back to normal levels, particularly after a long cycle. Some people can't stand how they feel after a cycle, so jump back on cycle after a few weeks PCT. Don't go there.
Agreed. Not unless you want to be on TRT for the rest of your life. But even then, true TRT isn't a cycle dose.
Yeah, I laugh my arse off with guys saying they are on up to 200mg pw TRT - that's a cycle - not TRT.
According to Harvard the average weekly production of Testosterone for a healthy male is 42mg per week.
I'm 64 and on 80mg Test E for TRT and you can see my blood work that I have posted - almost at the top of the range. I'm actually dropping my SQ PD shots down to every second day - I don't need to be at the top of the range - just in the middle is fine for me.
So many guys (especially young guys) are using 'TRT' as an excuse to blast and cruise and never actually get off gear. Don't really care - not my life - not my body - consequences don't affect me.
"On average, healthy young men produce about six milligrams of testosterone a day." - https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Testosterone_aging_and...
Molinin302Solid input guys, thank you.
RustyhookerIm far from perfect...im a midget butterball. But ultimately if you dont enjoy what you do---for YOU---is it worth it? Its really gotta be you by you. It is a solo sport. Breathe.....slow race...enjoy it
Mental health is priority nr. 1 and always has to be. The mind is all we have after all.
Chronic dieting/restricting causes your leptin levels to drop and among other things this has 3 very important consequences for your wellbeing (as leptin is a master control hormones that regulates your whole hypothalamus and also interacts directly in addition with pituitary cells):
1) your CRH & cortisol rises (and this causes your anxiety -have no better word for it- to rise)
2) it downregulates TRH and TSH and also reduces conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver (so your thyroid axes is impaired at 3 levels)
3) it directly decreases 5HT (serotonin) from your raphe nuclei (which does evolutionarily make sense: stop feeling calm and go get something to eat and worry)
My advice: slowly increase calories (about 50kcal every day) until you reach at least maintenance and maintain that for a few weeks. The energy will come back. I had the exact same issue in the past and ended up at 500kcal more then I was eating and maintained there for 2 months. Guess what: I haven´t gained a single ounce. Perhaps even lost some fat and gained some muscle. Stop worrying about gaining fat, you won´t gain much fat, perhaps some water weight.
In addition, what is the point in looking great but feeling like shit?? That completely defies the purpose of fitness
It's a long story, but it sounds a bit confusing. I'm not sure what your goals are?
Molinin302I'd like to eventually compete in the old man class, but for now it's getting in the best shape of my life. Everything I do is ultimately for that. Hence the frequent Dr. Appointments and labwork. I made way too many bad decisions in my youth and adulthood, and am still here, I'm making educated decisions now. But to answer your question, by chance I've figured out my caloric needs, by unfortunate experience. I'd rather not approach this blind, as even though I'm educated, I'm not educated in these specifics. I've gotten great advice here and hope that continues, and add advice on topics that I am educated about. Any feedback is appreciated as always.
Alphamale500Hey bro. Idk if it's just me, but even after you reiterated what your questions are, I still don't have a straightforward understanding of exactly what it is that you wanna know! Maybe it's just me, idk. But I don't see any straightforward questions in your post above! What are they?
Molinin302Sometimes it's not a direct question, it's talking about what's going on. I got a ton of great knowledge about what I'm doing wrong, and my Physician, as good as he is, cannot touch this advice I got from what may seem to be a rambling post. I over trained, fucked up my diet, and now I've learned the remedy to fix. This site is invaluable, nothing speaks like experience. I can tell you all day about organ function and what to look out for, but I'm still learning the compounds effects. I am untrained and unschooled. But I've learned we give and take here, it's great. BTW, some of these guys nailed symptoms I didn't express strongly, I have been down for a week or so.thanks for being here bro, it's all about better lives.
Sometimes taking a week off from the gym is the best thing you can do. Stay on diet and don't go crazy with the booze or other "good time inducing supplements" and just rest. I guarantee that you will come back feeling better and physically stronger than you were when you left.
Also, your daily caloric intake does look a little high and you might be adding too much fat with the additional weight. If you pur on too much weight too quickly it will put unnecessary strain on your connective tissue.
Molinin302Yea man, I've gotten past the bad stuff in life and appreciate the good. What do you feel is high? My current intake or what I'm reading and understanding that I need. Not shredded, but reasonably 15-17 percent, I'd post pics but kind of unnecessary. At 220 on the lean side, intense workouts (I do vomit sometimes 20min after), the numbers add up. I appreciate all advice and take it seriously, so please add. Thanks man. (On a side note, I'm very strict in form. I do alternate curls at the end of my chest/arm day. I'm proud to say I'm up to the 30s for 10 reps. I fry them)
I was talking the 4k calorie "maintenance" calculation. At 220 15%-17% bodyfat 4k calories is closer to the bulking range than maintenence or cutting range.
Molinin302Tbone and Bill, thanks. This stuff makes me weird sometimes, I get too focused I guess. I will take a week off. But original question, and this wasn't taught in my education, (bro science is a real thing), am I really looking at 4500 clean calories a day? I mean, I can do it, but damn. Food really is huge. Even more huge with the compounds. I'm sorry, there's other stressors going on, jackass stepson, but I'm not going to bitch about that. But 4500 clean? Damnit.
Are you weighing a logging every meal? I mean 4K maintenance is pretty high.
Molinin302I'm going off of different websites including non bodybuilding. Putting that with my education at 220lbs, and I'll put my BF conservatively at 15-17%, yeah. That's where the numbers fall. I'm eating my lunch before lunch so I can take that half hour to nap. I'm exhausted, but yet never had vascularity in May calves like this before. I'm dealing with a double edged sword here and don't know which side to go with.
Regardless of anything you need rest, you are taxed. Cortisol levels are extremely high too based on the exhaustion and other symptoms. Try taking 2000mg of vitamin c twice a day for the next 7-10 days and just relax as much as possible
Actually I think its the other way around. he was taxed for a long time (cortisol levels being high).
After some time CRH and the pituitary corticotrophs adapt to a new setpoint which causes downregulation of the HPA and the free cortisol levels are actually LOW and not high (this is what is commonly known as adrenal fatigue but has nothing to do with your adrenals but everything with your hypothalamus).
This is the biological correlate of a burnout.
VitC or any other stuff won´t help much, as they target the adrenals, which aren´t the issue though.
there are some things that help:
1) remove the stressor (in your case the hypocaloricity and perhaps life stress). Then all you got to do is to be patient (and it usually takes a few months for the HPA-setpoint to normalize again...)
2) in the meantime to speed things up you can try some adaptogens (rhodiola or ashwagandha -I would advice to alternate monthly) which slightly raise your cortisol levels to much more normal levels if they are low (as both of them are serotonergic).
Adrenal fatigue isn’t accepted in the modern medicine field
Blood test - guaranteed it’s high
and a cortisol test doesn't tell you shit due to transcortin. you need a super expensive free serum cortisol or a 24h free urine cortisol. and there is no way to "guarantee" whether it is high or low just by diagnosing over the internet, however my educated guess is free cortisol is at the bottom or rather low. chronic fatigue syndrome and burnout are both associated with low free cortisol, basically the only common biochemical abnormality in both
The same way your HTPA can downregulate after some time of high androgens or your thyroid partially shuts down after exogenous replacement or even endogenous overproduction so can your HPA after chronically high cortisol levels -and all these adaptations are of central (i.e. hypothalamic-pituitary) origin. Doesn't matter whether endogenous or exogenous. and as said, ADRENAL fatigue doesnt exit, but hypothalamic does
Maybe I’m wrong but if acth is released during periods of stress and cortisol is released to lower acth then it seems to me if he continues to stress his body more and more cortisol will be released...I just don’t understand down or up regulation is the feedback loop. But I studied ecology of biochem so it could be that my understanding is limited
Yes CRH is released in times of stress, which then releases ACTH. But after chronic CRH-release the system is "set" to a now lower setpoint and your baseline cortisol is much lower, causing you to be depleted of energy. Cortisol is actually a hormone that feels you good and energetic and having low cortisol levels causes you to feel like shit and crap, much more so compared to all the other hormones (e.g. hypothyroidism, hypogonadism). Cortisol is only a problem if it is elevated for a long time...and this in some people causes downregulation of the whole HPA, adapting to lower baseline values. This usually happens after months and years of chronic stress associated with high AUC cortisol (which is equally bad). And when the system has set to a very low baseline activity this is the equivalence of a burnout. Many burnout patients are treated with low dose hydrocortisone (their cortisol is replaced the same way thyroid or testosterone is replaced) and without it they feel like shit and have no energy and dark circles under the eyes ect.
+2. Great explanation
Might be time for some more in depth testing for my levels...thanks for the clarification
I am well versed in endocrinology and also in how to test for specific syndromes and their etiologies. If you have any questions shoot me a FR and PM me
Is your background in biochem?
Yes, but any guy on the internet could say that
Actually molecular biology
Lol I figured bc of your explanation I guess I just don’t fully understand the mechanism
Nobody does. Either it happens within a single cell due to epigenetic modifications or at the neuronal circuit level involving LTP/LTD of the synapses involved... or both.
I get that Lol ...
Molinin302Felt something in my throat, change of season thing I thought. I've been taking emergen-c, 1000 vitamin c plus some B12. On paper it makes sense, but C is very water soluble, washes right out. Im relying on you guys as there's no research on how to feed what we do. Crazy right? Thanks again man.
There are some decent cortisol products out of the vit c isn’t handling it - guerilla chemist makes one
AnonEveryone is different, even after you punch all your info in the tdee calculators..mine says like 3800 maint. I hit around that bulking and get a little sloppy..I sit on my ass at work, and do 4 days in my gym. You have to go by trial and error to dial it in yourself. Make sure you calculate for your lean mass. Subtract your bf%
100% with those other posts take a break when you can.
You need a week off the gym...relax. Let your cortisol levels come down, give your mind a break. Have a few cheat meals...it’s time to reset
Molinin302Yeah, thanks man, that's where I am and what I'm thinking at the moment. Breaks are healthy right? Been hitting it hard and sometimes there may be too much of a good thing.
Anon100% breaks are necessary even! You're not a bber making money, you're just a guy with a family. Same boat my man. Eat some pizza, have a Coke. Chill out for a bit..fuck, I am doing that today while on cycle! Been stressed and not sleeping well cus of the kid so I said fuck it today. Once every couple months this happens. I ate 2 donuts and got a coffee with 90% whipped cream.. didn't even touch my lunch, I'm down 1# of chicken and 4 cups of rice today. I'm gonna have pizza for dinner and a beer, know why? Because I have a family, and if I get burned out I won't be worth a fuck for them. My health comes first, especially mental health. And I won't die, I won't lose all my gains, and I WILL get back on it tomorrow, rested, happy, and relaxed. Just what I needed. I've been on a strict ish diet for around 10 months, five days or so of complete fuckery is worth it in my book!
He’s right. When I feel like shit and tired and stop making gains I take ten days off and come back wanting it again. Matter of fact this is my 11 day off and I’m going to the gum around 8 tonight.