giardap's picture
giardap
  • 557
  • CC
4064

+ 10 PCT - It's history - why, what and how to customise for YOU

ad

A protocol is only a guideline!

Let's get real for a minute here... there is nothing biblical and all encompassing about... PROTOCOL! A protocol is merely a set of guiding rules to help steer you in the right direction. That's all. If we assume that every protocol on the internet forums is true and valid for us, we are essentially saying to ourselves; I don't matter. We are saying; the fact that my shutdown is more lengthy than yours just doesn't matter... we are saying; my reaction to clomid that makes me suicidal just doesnt matter.... we are saying, well my 6 week cycle with test only is no different to your 6 month test tren deca trest adrol dbol everythingelsabol... doesnt matter......and so on. Guess what though....... there are differences.

Will you let an internet bro cite his personal rules to you as if they should fit your hormonal and physiological condition? Or, will you man up and learn a little about where PCT came from, what it is, what can be involved and then design something that works for you?

The following info primarily comes from the creator of the PCT former MD Michael Scally, but you will see he has tested and presented his hypotheses with other well known AAS guru's such Nelson Vergel and others.

If you actually take the time to read this info and follow the time line, you will be able to understand why a compound is used. Eg. HCG simply to prove seconday (testes/HPTA) function at which point we switch off HCG and switch the pituitary on with SERMS by blocking estrogen at the pit, again to prove pituitary function.... at which point we again switch it off to allow Darwin to kick in and restore normal function involving estrogen as a part of the negative feedback loop to resume). Same with tamoxifen (similar to, but also differently to clomid) ***both of which can in fact be used independently or more importantly to potentially compliment one another (hence the clomid + nolv combo). The independent action of nolv and clomid is important given how harsh either chem can be to different individuals... The literature details how EITHER chemical can be used as a part of a PCT plan but presents a hypotheses of the combo as a best option for those who tolerate it.

Understand the chemicals, their function and your personal response to them and you can then formulate a true PCT relevant for you.

The lit:
What you are doing to yourself:
https://goo.gl/pMfMsT
Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH).... doing it on a daily brahhhh. This details how we the AAS crew have created a self-inflicted form of hypogonadism.

The original PCT presentation
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nelson_Vergel2/publication/32026956......
This image details a large presentation on ASIH treatment, based on unsupervised uncontrolled trials on ~19 men. This is the sort of thing that probably started Scally on a path towards losing his MD, despite having been published in peer reviewed journals and discovering/documenting ASIH.

Formal explanation of the PCT - Chapter 11
http://corpus-scientia.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1558-free-download-ana...
The PCT has changed since these publications and has evolved. This, however, is essential reading. In fact, the entire book is. It makes endocrinology from our viewpoint, highly accessible.

Now you know about PCT and its evolution. But don't stop there.... There are other SERMS out there, there are natural restart routes to bump natural production - yeah buddy, ironically Darwin is on our side .... mostly. However, this post is primarily concerned with the much misunderstood PCT. Consider this; Scally created the PCT, his friends Nelson Vergel et al, coined the term Power PCT as a protocol used in their Program for Wellness and Restoration (PoWeR), and now years later internet brah's globally discuss the Power PCT as some advanced protocol for when standard PCT doesnt work.... a nice blurring of the lines!!! Since then, Roberts suggested different clomid frontloading to achieve a swifter steadystate to clinical response.... however, importantly; this doesnt apply to nolvadex which cannot realise a swifter clinical response despite frontloads (in otherwords, frontloadong nolv is a pointless overdose), nor does a dose in excess of 20mg (again, read the medical lit on the compounds to understand what they actually do!).

These days, Scally, doesnt use as much HCG or Nolv and frontloads for Clomid can differ depending on a given individual's tolerance to doses or the compound itself - In forum trenches, this can lead to protocol-war! But it is hardly the point... a protocol is a standard guideline and must be proven and/or customised, then proven again.

More important is to consider what is effective... when do compounds become clinically effective in terms of response production. Is 20mg 2x per day necessary when above 20mg likely doesnt provide a clinical advantage? Is one loading protocol ok considering it is effectively an overdose? Can any human even answer these questions for another considering our metabolisms are all different as are our physiological states and the self induced hypogonadic states we have created.

There is only one thing that proves or disproves any individual's personal protocol
Make no mistake about it; a PCT protocol should be very personal.... and there is only 1 way to prove its effectiveness... that's blood tests. Technically; you need bloods before cycle, on cycle, before PCT, after HCG, after clomid/nolv and after they have cleared fully again. That is the only blood regimen that will prove or disprove each stage.

Guess what? It doesnt stop there!
Now you need to consider optimising your natural testosterone production.
More details here: https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/over-40-trt/considering-trt-at-lown...

Hopefully people can understand where PCT came from and how to customise it and use it. I purposely didnt post my own protocol, because that really isnt the point of the post. We all need to learn more about what we are doing to ourselves and stop blindly trusting random bro's online.

/As a final note
You will need to consider AAS esters and clearance rates to really know when to start a PCT... but thats info i might add later...

giardap's picture

Interview with Scally. about 3 years back. Why you do not follow "the most ridiculous thing ever" - "the 2 week rule". This is the nonsense that keeps getting parroted and has people commencing PCT while still on cycle, and finishing too early. Ultimately it leads to ineffective recovery and diminishing ability to recover over time and for many leads eventually to TRT.

https://soundcloud.com/under-the-bar/dr-michael-scally-anabolic-steroids...

Part 1 is good too.

giardap's picture

BUMP - as there has been a lot of absolute nonsense that will send people trt, bounced around out there

Insane_Arms's picture

Wow man excellent read. I know I have much to learn and been doing my homework. I been lucky enough to meet some brilliant people here who have given me solid info including yourself now. I’m going to do a test only run for about 12 weeks. I’m also going to get several PCTs and Ancillaries just to see what I respond to best if needed. Plus bloods before and every 2 weeks till complete.

giardap's picture

Good luck! Let us know how you get on!

Insane_Arms's picture

I’m waiting till gyms open. My f****** head is spinning.

GizmoDuck's picture

Thanks man

r1ck22's picture

really really good post.

IrishWOLFhound's picture

Great post !!

giardap's picture

Thanks big Irish
Hopefully it gets people thinking about what they can achieve when they need to!

Carlos Danger's picture

I’m glad you referred to Scally’s pct as pretty old stuff. The HCG usage and timing is considered outdated now. There’s no Aromasin for estro rebound in it which we proved w/blood work over 5yrs ago works very well. Scally is a good reference point but I just want to reiterate to folks that it should not be the end all be all. Toremifene is another Serm which members here have used with success. PCT like you state is a very personal decision and should always be based on personal experience. I’ve tried lots of variations to try and reboot. From Tore to Nova Clomid to HCG HMG w/ and w/o Aro. For me my HPTA is shot. No coming back from shutdown. But I’ve always tried to help others avoid a lifetime of needles. It’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

In a promo × 1
giardap's picture

Exactly Carlos. Its from 1980s, the original pct. He has changed it somewhat. Yeah absolutely, nobody should ever read an online protocol and think thats the end of the story. It couldnt possibly be. And thats the point of this post; learn the history, learn thefunction, learn the new options and customise/prove.

There are about 12 or 13 core SERMS. The balance between point of action and whether they are anti estro or estro in effect at those points is where it is at for choice/selection.

There is a chap on the forums at the moment experiencing exactly as you say, an estro and prolactin rebound. 1 tablet 20 or 25mg tab of aromasin is all he would need to sort his lack of libido and delayed reboot... but again, bloods are what have confirmed it.

Bloods, bloods, bloods.

giardap's picture

Thanks BK!

Sam I Am's picture

+2

Owes a Review × 1
giardap's picture

Cheers Sam, apprecoate it

Dacky's picture

Awesome work brother big +2 from me. Sticky stuff this is!

giardap's picture

Cheers Dacky!

There is a real opportunity to do a fertility/on cycle hcg/hmg post. You should get something on that as both would compliment oneanother

Manshit's picture

Once again brother you hit us with some knowledge!Good job.Big difference between norms in the culture and the thing one should really be doing.Every one is different,so everything doesn’t work for everyone so stressing bloods is great advise.You always come through!+

giardap's picture

I just hope we all learn a little and people see how to make it work for them. Lots of options!!

giardap's picture

Yeah. Teying to get it sorted. Weird cloudflare errors from the site when posting

dextetherdog's picture

This would be interesting to read, please post the link when you have a chance!!!

giardap's picture

Done. There is a fair bit of reading, but I promise it is worth it, if yu can stomach it. Its really interesting.

dextetherdog's picture

Thank you @giardap. When you think you know everything but then start reading scientific research and realise you not that smart.
Will sit down at home and read this on my computer

giardap's picture

Yeah man, reading these things is an exercise in humility. Ive read a few endo books this past year (selective bits that i needed to understand), and the one thing that keeps cropping up is that they do not truly know how all this stuff works. They think and guess based on evidence and outcomes, but its a constant learning process.. . They admit that themselves every publication
Its crazy

The 1 thing about Scally though... he keeps it accessible. He did it all for the bro's lol

dextetherdog's picture

I will get back to you once I read it. I have sent you a friend request, though maybe you could suggest couple of good books on this subject, that would be appreciated.

giardap's picture

Accepted!

dextetherdog's picture

Thanks man, will PM you if that’s ok?!

giardap's picture

Absolutely fella