+ 3 Mild steroid cycle at 40 is it worth the risk
Hi All,
Just wanted to hear your opinion whether it’s worth the risk going on a mild cycle at the age of 40. Although I’ve been a gymgoer for a long time, I’ve never done roids before this year (aged 39). And I only did them to test whether my gym and bedroom performance deterioration and some fatigue had been due to low T or something else. My bloodwork before the cycle showed a total T of around 500 ng/dl (did a couple of tests a month apart). Before that, 6 years prior, it was 650 ng/dl (seems to be a steeper drop to 500 than with normal aging, but that’s another story).
The 1st cycle was a mild one - only Test E 250mg/week for 8 weeks. As you can guess, there were noticeable improvements both at the gym and in between the sheets. In terms of side effects: sore nipples, mood swings, empty balls. After the cycle I waited for 2 weeks and did PCT with Clomid 50mg ED for 3 weeks. Testicles were slowly returning to their normal size and I did a blood test 8 weeks after PCT which showed a total T of 350 ng/dl. Certainly an improvement, but given that my SHBG level was around 40 nmol/l (18-54) and albumin 49 g/l, the free T (calculated) was still in the red. Next blood test 12 weeks after PCT revealed a total T of 440 ng/dl and then after 3 more weeks (15 weeks after PCT) - 510 ng/dl. Back to where I started.
If I decide to do another cycle, it will be an even milder one: 100 mg Test C a week and, probably HCG 250iu twice weekly (for compound effect and full testicles) for 7 weeks with PCT thereafter. I’m hoping to get to the top of the range values of around 1000-1200 ng/dl to have an edge in the gym and in the bedroom with minimal side effects and a short shut down time. It’s more of a TRT cycle if there is such a term.
Is it worth it, from your experience? Am I going to damage my HPTA? There is some elasticity left in it, but it can change for the worse with each cycle as well as with age, I guess. How many times can one do it without damage? I’d prefer to wait before starting a proper TRT for another 10-15 years (if levels are low).
Or, should I try to bring my levels up in some other way? I’ve tried boron to bring my SHBG down and free T up, but I don’t think it worked. At least I didn’t notice anything. My prolactin is in the high normal range. Maybe caber for that?
I’m 185lbs, 6’1, 15-17% BF and other blood markers (full blood count, liver, thyroid, etc) are within normal ranges. I don’t have too much stress at the moment and have a healthy whole food diet. My sleep is normal almost every night. So, there is not much room for improvement here.
Please share your experience and comments.
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Thanks all for your comments, appreciated. Sounds like you're not recommending it and I hear you. But does it mean you think that a mild 7 week cycle (or a TRT cycle) with a proper PCT and rest is definitely going to damage HPTA? Maybe you happen to know a study confirming that? I found one claiming that endogenous testosterone production may not fully recover after steroid use, but subjects of the study were more long-term users of much higher doses.
I have recovered from the previous cycle of 250 Test E / week, although not sure whether it’s a 100% recovery or not yet. And to tell you the truth, I didn’t totally like my previous 100% as it felt like my levels were lower than they should have been for my age and healthy(ish) lifestyle. And there is not much else I could do to bring them up naturally.
There is another part of the story. Some time ago (we’re talking years) I withdrew from antidepressants (SSRI). And they are known for messing up serotonergic and dopaminergic pathways. I think my high prolactin level might quite possibly be the consequence of SSRI usage. And prolactin impacts testosterone (negatively). So, with these short cycles I was also hoping to re-set my endo systems. As for example sex hormones influence dopamin, which in turn impacts prolactin. And my prolactin is 20% lower 3 months after the cycle than it was a year ago (might be normal fluctuations, though).
Still, choosing between proper TRT (even under doctor supervision) and my normal nutty level, I’d prefer the latter at this time. With a couple of mild cycles a year to feel 120% albeit temporarily, provided that the cycles are safe and won’t damage me further.
I think in your blind ambition to get a signoff on running a mild cycle you've missed several key points.
You can mitigate risk by following good protocols but there is no such thing as a "safe cycle" with no risk of damage. Safe is a relative term. Not a certainty.
Is there really something which truly works to raise testo naturally apart from healthy diet, normal weight, exercise, good sleep etc which I already follow? Supplements? Tried boron, tribulus - didn't feel anything.
And the higher the dose and the longer the duration the more likely that it will be unsafe, that's how I read it. And therefore I wouldn't want to do a "proper" cycle of higher than 250mg test /week. And becoming huge is not on the top of my priorities at this stage of life. More like having hormone levels of a 25 yo for several months a year.
thanks for your feedback though
Then your choice is clear. Don't cycle. The risks for such a low dose cycle are not worth the rewards.
Personally from the way you are talking I wouldn't run the risk of messing up your endocrine system for good at this stage, just for the size of cycle that you want to run. You either want to run a proper cycle of say 500mg/wk Test E or you don't. I just get the feeling that it doesn't really matter that much to you vs. the potential damage you could do long run. Thats not meant as a bad thing, just putting things in perspective in your situation. If you were extremely into your training and eager to really progress to the next level I'd encourage you more but it doesn't come across that way.
Well said. In my opinion the member does not even know what he wants to achieve or what he is trying to say. He talks about TRT when he has a normal level of testosterone within his age range. He performed a normal PCT during his first cycle, recovering testosterone levels perfectly. He has no physical or psychological decline, he has no stress and sleeps peacefully.
He is just very confused, that's what I read.
AnonI don't think running a cycle of 100mg of Test C a week is worth it.
That is not a mild cycle, it is a commonly prescribed dose for TRT. And I don't think you will get prescribed TRT when your current total Test is 510 ng/dL. Because 510 is not low, it's fairly average, sir.
If you were to run another cycle I think it would be best to have all the necessary or potentially necessary auxiliaries on hand first. You mentioned high prolactin so caber on hand. You mentioned sore nips so perhaps Nolvadex on hand to stop gyno and treat gyno at first sign (I can link a double-blind, placebo-controlled study that demonstrates Nolvadex being an effective cure for some cases of gyno) . An aromatase inhibitor (you didn't mention an AI in your first cycle) to keep estrogen in check. HCG to keep your boys full on cycle or bounce back toward the end of the cycle (I've run it both ways successfully). And LOTS of research about all these auxiliaries to gain more knowledge about running them.
This is your decision. Keep in mind that PCT doesn't always work and you might end up needing TRT if you run another cycle. You might also need TRT in 10 or 20 years if you stay natural too.
Yea I wish I had 510.
Trt isn’t bad but it can be inconvenient.
I love that blood tests mate. Wish I had my head screwed on that well before I started using.
What your proposing is not worth it.
It’s not worth shutting down your own testosterone for 100mg a week. Yes this would slightly elevate your test levels but not by much and then you have to use all the meds to restart.
You have good testosterone levels naturally at 40 so I’d stay natural if I were you. Why risk it? You don’t need a trt dose.
If you have a burning desire to cycle this isn’t a decent cycle and needs revision. But if you do choose to cycle you will more than likely advance the requirement of any TRT treatment. Your a grown up and you’ll make your own choices.
I wouldn’t run this.
Molinin302Ya know, I see where Greg was going now. If guy feels well, no ED problems, mental fog or depression, no ED problems (yeah I repeated myself), there's no reason to risk shutting yourself down if everything is working properly for the sake of a better pump. I retract my advice. Thanks guys.
If your going to start trt or a trt dosage cycle, why not go the doctor and do it properly?
Trt is for life, do you really want to be pinning the rest of your life?
If you don’t want to start trt now, then why do this cycle?
Molinin302What youre considering now is basically TRT. Youre already low, so personally Id recommend it. As far as upping doses or adding a little something else? The fact that you've kept doses reasonable, proper labs and PCT I'd say you've got your head on very straight. As long as you're in good health, go for it my guy.
His levels are not low.
Why would you personally recommend a non doctor supervised TRT?
TRT without a doctors care is a cruise.
Well said Greg. I think it's full of cruising members in here, defined by them as TRT.
Molinin302I shouldve been clearer with my words, Dr supervised TRT. As far as low, I think that's debatable. In the low 500s in your 40s is certainly addressable. 500s are great, if you're in your 60s.
Edit- depending on the time of day of the test, I'm willing yo bet throughout the day hes still in the 400s.
I'll take that bet
normal levels for men in 17 to 18 yrs old is 300-1,200
normal levels for men in their 20's & 30's is 270-1070
normal levels for men in their 40's is 252–916
normal levels for men in their 50's is 215–878
Notice, there is not much difference between the low ends for men in there 20's and 30's to those in their 40's and 50's.
Even if his levels are 300 at his low point in the day he is still well within normal range.
Life sucks, you get old I'm on scripted TRT my levels are in the mid 600's and I still want to nap during the day.
Testosterone with all its benefits is still not the fountain of youth.
Molinin30240yo I was 795, Dr did a complete physical. I became dependent on a medication and it was time to come off.
42yo was at 454 and noticeable problems with ED
6mo later I was at 375 with very remarkable ED. Instead of the ol' clock hand point to 1:00, it was about quarter to 4:00 at best. After about 6 months of Dr prescribed TRT it was back to life. And morning wood which I haven't gotten in a couple years I agree 100% that its not a fountain of youth, that fountain does not exist. We're all different, being in the mid 300s was causing me some serious issues in the quality of life area. As far as naps, they're ok to take. If youre taking them while watching Matlock or Mamas Family in the middle of the afternoon you may need to reevaluate where you are in life lol
Everyone blames testosterone levels on their mood/anxiety/stress/ed/etc. In fairness peoples laziness, lack of motivation, erectile dysfunction, blah blah is psychological most of the time not all. I have a friend who tested his total T and he is at a life threatening 230. He works out all the time, has several kids, bangs his wife frequently from what he tells me and is the happiest guy I ever seen. He has no stress, he owns his own business and keeps active as much as he can, His quality of life is where he wants it to be. Should he start trt? At that level he must be wishing he was dead. Nope. I am on trt from my levels dropping to 225. Mine was due to drug use and not taking care of myself mixed with massive stress. I dropped the stress and went back to the gym and got a better job but it was too late. People who put themselves on a permanent drug because they "feel" like thats what they need should consult a therapist first. Thats like installing a K&N air filter on your car and saying it feels much faster. The only life saving drugs out there are the ones you will die without. You change your lifestyle and your stress levels and its an instant test boost. My rant is not geared directly at you, its after a while all you see are snake oil salesman convincing people drugs will change their life when all they do is enslave you to a life of drug servitude when maybe all you needed was a shoulder to cry on.
If it took 6 months of trt to get your erections back then the culprit was not low test at all, you should have been popping out of your pants after a couple weeks. SO many factors, so many variables.
Molinin302Very well put, +1. I have a question yo pose, probably best in the TRT forum. But I'm curious about other influences for shutdown. The Dr's outside my network are pretty sure the benzos are what messed me up (the ones in my network just want test after test, wont accept blame). But I had crazy growth spurts, bad acne, body hair at a young age. I remember the dermatologist wanting to do something with my hormones, but my mom said no. I wonder how many of us had wacky hormones growing up?
I had a ton of testosterone in my teen years, I would fuck a tree stump if it looked like a vagina. I didnt have a lot of hair growth but I was incredibly lean and muscular. I had 6 pack abs and never worked out. But I abused alcohol and pills all through college and later into my later years. When I hit 35 and I settled down and got comfortable my weight ballooned from 130 to 260 in 2 years time. I had a high paying job, 2 houses, 3 cars and a sizable bank account, but my depression was there from my job. I dealt with it once again by drinking all the time and popping pills. I had no sex drive although my dick would get up and running. After a couple years of it my wife said do something or she was out the door. So went and saw my doc who put me through the ringer of tests, the very last one was my hormone levels. They started me on Clomid, I got back in the gym, found a different job that wasnt as high pay but I was less stressed out. I sold 2 of the cars and we kept one house. I was retested 3 months later and my test levels did rise, but not enough. It was after 2 more months my doc started me. After a month I felt no difference at all, 2 months is where I started to get my appetite back and initiated sex with the old lady. I was retested and my levels were only at 350-400(cant remember exactly) on 75 every 2 weeks. So I was sent to a endocrinologist that put me on 150 a week. After 3 weeks on that I was feeling much better. Still was a angry midget but that was due to me being pissed at myself for letting things get to where they were.
Long story short, alcohol and pills coupled with depression from being lazy and fat were a factor of my downward spiral, but years of self medicating and loathing helped put the nail in my hormone coffin.
AnonGood stuff. I once had mild depression. It wasn't from low T. It was from a vitamin deficiency. I didn't take the therapist or psychiatrist route. I got a comprehensive vitamin panel blood work. I was low in D3. I take 8,000iu's a of D3 a day now. I also got some of my other vitamins dialed in. Had I taken the psychiatrist route I would have been prescribed an anti-depressant and my vitamin deficiency gone untreated, continuing to negatively effect my health while the anti-depressant concealed the real problem.
Had the vitamin route not worked I would have tried the shoulder to cry on route. Psychiatric drugs are a last resort in my book, that's just my style.
lol I agree, not the drugged part of therapy, Those anti depressants turn you into a zombie. I just meant there are so many other things to consider, yours was a chemical imbalance and plus 2 for finding that out. Most people don't look for answers they want the fast route. I had to undergo a battery of tests to see where I was at. And had to cry on a few shoulders to deal with my anger management that was found out to be mild depression.
AnonThank you and +1 to you for taking what I consider the best route when dealing with such an issue brother.
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