Abc458's picture
Abc458
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Newbie questions. What do I need to start weight loss, muscle gain?

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Hi all,

First post, this is a Great forum. Learning a lot already.

I'm a 36yr old guy. 6'2, 244 pounds, 32% body fat! Used to be a chubby kid, but then started training and body building back in college all natural and was as low as 8% BF when I was 26 and very high T levels.

Now, I'm having enlarged liver, pre-diabetes, high Chlosterol and low T. Years of corporate work, business travel and bad diet with little exercise.

It used to be relatively easy for me to get back into an average shape with little effort of diet and exercise (like 220, 15-20% BF). However, last 2 years it's been incredibly difficult. The same level of diet and exercise is simply not enough and it maybe due to much lower T levels and much higher BF which itself produces estrogen.

What I'm looking for is to kick start things and do an intense program for 6-8 weeks to lose 20-25 pounds of fat and gain at least 5 pounds muscle and need advise.

Roids: My doctor is giving me either Androgel or T injections, which helps more? Should I do anything more?

Diet: what's recommended for someone who can only train 2-3 days a week? 6 smaller meals a day? Carbs only at breakfast and big cut backs?

Training: what combo of weight to cardio? Heavy sets or high reps?

Weight loss Supplements: I'd like to get some help at the beginning. I believe after I reduce my BF to a lower level can do the rest via training and diet but for now I may need some boost of metabolism. I'm leaning towards Clen at low dose. Any advise or other suggestions?

Thank you all for helping out a newbie!

Abc458's picture

UPDATE: I have some AMAZING NEWS! I just saw my specialist today, and after 2.5 mos of taking the Gel T, at 5mg a day, plus losing 5lbs, everything has LITERALLY COME BACK TO NORMAL!

Wow, I am incredibly shocked how drastically thing have changed, my Testosterone went from 153 to 675! My Cholesterol is now in the normal range, so is HDL/LDL, my Glucose fasting is now down to normal, and GTG is also back to normal... literally 2.5mos of Testosterone has made such incredible changes. I've had slight higher Cholesterol, and higher Glucose levels for 3 years and it's all normal now.

Abc458's picture

Thanks! I have a free gym in our office, I just wish I had the time to go more often. Corporate work is horrendous on one's body.

I was a gym addict in college, was at the gym at least 5 days a week and was at 8% BF... how things change!

IrishMack's picture

A little added advice, use the androgel as the doctor prescribed. Given the facts that you are overweight, out of shape, and have other medical issues the androgel will be better suited so if you get healthier the doctor can stop the gel and watch your natural levels come back just from the massive weight loss and healthier eating. Androgel works just as well as injections except it is a lower dose. Maybe the reason your doctor wants you on it, what was your test level?

Abc458's picture

I'm now around 150-170. My Estradiol is 92 (normal range 95-223 pmol/L).

BTW, my T level was around 900-1000 when I was in late 20s, then JUST TWO years ago I was around 300-350.

jimmie's picture

A supplement you may want to look into could be mic caps, I'm using one called lypotropic factors. It's meant to cleanse the liver and kidneys by flushing fats outs of the organs.

Clean living and exercise can cure all of your ailments. The liver can regenerate itself, you can reverse diabetes and high cholesterol. And perhaps you can hold off trt, working hard enough you can bring up those levels naturally... of course exogenous test will help the hard work. If you want to have kids that may be something you want to think about. At 36 though, most guys won't be able to get levels up to high normal, never mind optimal.

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Abc458's picture

Not sure what that is, starting to use a 2-pill a day Liver cleanse I got from Whole Foods.

jimmie's picture

methionine inositol choline .. I'm taking them in pill form, not for weight loss but general health. They are offered in injections as well.

http://www.divineweightlossinc.com/products/mic-methionine-inositol-chol...

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Dickkhead's picture

Now, I'm having enlarged liver, pre-diabetes, high Chlosterol and low T.

Hey bro, just wanted to check-in when I saw this. Do you drink any alcohol or smoke any cigarettes? I don't mean to offend you, I used to do both.

Abc458's picture

Ouch! Nice one... NOPE! I've never smoked, but drink sparingly (1-2 beers a week). Liver issues are not serious, and I am NOT on any meds or whatever, my GGT was tiny bit over and my doctor said it's just because of my weight.

Dickkhead's picture

So, then, your liver is not really "enlarged" then? GGT being over is unusual bro. Most routine blood tests only show AST and ALT which are major liver enzymes for sure, but not specific to the liver. A GGT level is ordered when we suspect the liver is under a lot of stress. GGT is specific to the liver. Elevated GGT is an indicator of a problem. Being obese does not raise GGT bro. It just doesn't. Booze will jack GGT. I remember when I was VP of a large American international corporation. First class tickets to Singapore, to Tokyo, to Sidney. Sitting up front the flight attendants keep your glass full. Especially on those 20+ hour flights. Posh hotels (and hotel bars). Dinner with customers. And, lots of cocktails, wine and the like. If your doctor 1) Ordered GGT - he did it for a reason and 2) If he tells you it's because of your weight, he's a crack pot.

Alcohol will also drive your Testosterone down to TRT status. It will also start to show as diabetes as you indicated.

How do I know all this? You're obviously a smart guy. If you think about it you can prolly figure out why I know all about this. LOL Smile Smile

Abc458's picture

Well, I trust my doctors word over yours buddy. He said GGT is the short term enzyme, and if you go for a weekend of drinking your GGT levels will be higher on Monday, but AST/ALT is the indicators for long term liver issues (by alcoholics). He said my elevated GGT is due to my body fat. They did an ultrasound and it's basically fatty liver now.

Now, I do travel a lot, and work crazy hours, bad sleep, stress, etc... but generally don't drink. I don't care if you don't believe me, but I DO NOT DRINK! Now, if max 2-3 beers a week is too much then that's a different story.

Dickkhead's picture

Bro, I have to accept what you say. Why would you lie? It's pointless. I'm certainly not a medical doctor, but I do own a software company, so I can relate to the job stress you speak of.

I guess we are all different. Getting an enlarged fatty liver from stress and bad diet must be possible if your doctor says so.

However, as an alcoholic myself, my doctors and yours simply disagree entirely about AST and ALT being a long term measure of liver health for us alcoholics. My doctor always looked at GGT as the barometer. Doctors disagree on a lot of stuff it seems. I guess that's why they call it "practicing" medicine.

I'm happy for you that your job stress has not resulted in inappropriate alcohol consumption. A lot of people would not be as strong as you are in that regard, regardless of whether they were true alcoholics or not.

A couple of beers on the weekend is certainly not excessive.

Best regards.

Abc458's picture

I am also in Software industry, so I guess we both understand the pressures involved in that industry. Thankfully it hasn't made me alcoholic, YET! ;)

So, not sure what to think. He basically does GGT testing as part of regular checks and when it was elevated he tested for the other ones that are normal. My GGT first was 113, then lowered to 80 and then 60. Max range for me is 50 U/L. He said alcoholics GGT could be in thousands.

Another culprit might be my Asthma meds that I've been taking for years... and definitely bad diet.

Dickkhead's picture

Hey bro, the only reason I pushed hard on you about this is because for whatever reason, the constellation of symptoms you described in your post - enlarged fatty liver, blood sugar issues (pre- diabetes), low-T etc. are identical to those caused by excessive alcohol consumption.

I had all the same symptoms.

And, while I may have seemed obnoxious, please understand as an alcoholic myself I would be the very last man on earth to be judgemental about the issue.

I just wanted to make certain that that problem was not playing in the background because if it was, trying to get your fitness and physique back with that hanging on your neck would have been impossible.

Sorry for seeming like a jackass. My intentions were good. LOL

Abc458's picture

No worries, if I was, I'd mention it to see what is safe or not to do.

BTW, how did you get around your challenges? What training, diet or liefstyle changed? I really think a lot has to do with my work schedule, 5am calls to Europe, red-eye flights, long-haul short trips and lately with softer economy, mostly econ flights!

Dickkhead's picture

When I finally put the plug in the jug, my skin was gray, my eyeballs were yellow and my hair was falling out in clumps and I was still working as an executive in a large company. One of the youngest guys ever in that big a job. In retrospect I don't know why they kept me. 8 rehabs did nothing. I was doing like 2 rehabs a year. That's 60 days of lost work and I didn't get shit canned. Betty Ford twice, Sierra Tucson, the Caron Foundation in PA, Hazelton, MN, Hazelton, West Palm Beach and a few others. I was also smoking 3 packs a day. Finally, with 20 open beer cans on the coffee table in my condo a beer can in my hand and a lit cigarette in my mouth, I looked at the ceiling and said, "Lord, I can't live like this anymore, please help." I was dead serious. I didn't hear an audible voice like Moses and the burning bush, but I did have this overwhelming feeling of "Son, I have only been waiting for you to ask. It's over." I put the cigarette out in the beer can in my hand, set it down on the table and never looked back. That was more than a decade ago. I became very active in my church after that. LOL

jimmie's picture

Hasn't ephedrine been linked to quite a few deaths? Advising that to someone with high cholesterol and being over weight seems to be very irresponsible. Glad to see clen being advised against...

Topical testosterone is bullshit, take the injections and be sure your dr will keep estradiol in check. You want your total test to be over 800 and estradiol between 15-30. If he doesn't agree to that get another dr.

Fasted cardio first thing in the morning, only thing in your stomach should be cold water. After work hit the gym again moderate weight high reps followed by another cardio session.

There's a million diets out there, find one that you think you can stick with for a long time. Low, quality calories, eating often. The right meal plan will boost your metabolism without drugs or supplements.

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kodiakGRRL's picture

Topical testosterone is bullshit

in all actuality transdermal test is not bullshit and works rather well for people who are NOT using to get exceptionally big. and done properly and placed properly can and will add enough muscle mass to make a guy feel like he's accomplished something

kodiakGRRL's picture

research the dulcan diet you don't need supplements for weight loss ..clen is a big fat no no with all your medical issues

Abc458's picture

Thanks, some trainer guy/body builder at a gym recommended it! I guess he's an idiot then...

kodiakGRRL's picture

It is easy to recommend a pill ... not so easy telling someone to make a lifestyle change ..

12stone's picture

Not a good idea... cholesterol and "pre-diabetes" he def needs to stay away from stims, as his body is already under enough stress. If anything I would go with a high protein low carb diet, with 6-8 small meals per day to try and stabilize blood sugar and increase metabolism for weight loss. The gel works just fine as trt from what several people have told me. Focus on diet, increase your cardio, add whole grains such as oats and quinoa, and get yourself working towards a healthier life style OP. Best of luck my man!!

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Abc458's picture

Thanks, not clear what do you mean by "not a good idea"? Which is not a good idea? TRT?

Your diet recommendations are great, I am also seeing a nuitritionist to get on a plan.

12stone's picture

I meant the ECA was not a good idea. I don't think u need stimulants or " fat burners" to achieve your goals.

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miggymig's picture

Go with injections get that diet on check.
Research your body type, set a goal for it.
Pick a routine that you will stick with it and then customise it as you go to what works for you.

Make sure you let the Dr handle all AAS and blood tests with that liver Bro

Abc458's picture

Thanks guys. Where do I find out about body types? There are a lot of sites and some BS stuff.

About Clen. Is it nasty? Not good for liver or heart? Heart is definitely oK. I was on Eac before but can't find good Ephedra anymore. I can buy it here in stores (Canada) but the effects are not the same as I had before when it was more widely available.

Also, so no other steroids to add? Just T shots? He gave me the gel, and next week seeing if we should change to injections or not.

Dacky's picture

No more steroids mate. Not with your issues. Go with the TRT that works best for you. If it were me from what I know (and I'm not on TRT) I would go injections. No other medication is needed unless it's prescribed by your doctor. Stay away from the Clen and I'd say even the ECA. All you need is diet and the proper balance between cardio and lifting. Get a post up in the diet forum and get the help you need there. I think you said you can only train 3 days a week so if that was me I would structure 3 total body lifting sessions of heavy compound movement which you keep the same on all 3 days and some ancillary muscle group exercises which can be changed. I'd also do 45mins of LISS fasted cardio 5 days a week in the morning before work. Try that for 12 weeks with the proper diet and getting your test levels in range and stabilised and you should see a major difference.

IrishMack's picture

Good answer, given the OP's medical history advising all that other shit is a recipe for hospital visits. Also with the OP being overweight he should use the androgel and after he loses a lot more weight the doctor will weed him off of it because he will be healthier and able to produce his own test again due to not being obese.

Abc458's picture

Thanks, so you think the Gel is better? I am going for a re-visit, he said if my body hasn't responded to the Gel, he may switch it to injections. I guess some men don't absorb as much as others.

Abc458's picture

In terms of body type. It looks like I'm between Endomorph and Mesomorph. Most my body fat is concentrated on my belly and chest. I have skinny hips and legs. But at the same time, I look like I'm built naturally without workout. So broad shoulders and V shape if I don't have too much BF.

Dacky's picture

Fella with all due respect I really think this guys should not be on any fat burners or stims including ECA stacks. I know your advising to work with the doctor and it may not be needed but in this case given the circumstances and the stats we shouldn't even be entertaining the idea.

Dacky's picture

No worries fella. I know you and know you weren't suggesting he does this right away but I guess that was my point. The OP doesn't know you and worst case takes what you said too literally and off he goes. I'm coaching one guy online who is very impatient because he is overweight and I have to take extra care with him and make sure he doesn't hurt himself. I know you meant no harm but just wanted to stress that to the OP. Thank for following up with your reply.

Abc458's picture

Thanks Dacky and Murph.

So, you think because of my overall physical shape such stacks or Clen is just too much and in addition to diet and training, TRT is what's needed to help, right?

The reason I'm asking was that it has become extremely difficult to lose weight lately and I'm a bit desperate and my doctor said that it's a chicken and egg game as since I have low testasterone, I can't burn as much fat and with that much fat I can't bring up T levels much.

My T level was around 970 when I was in late 20s, then 300-350 just TWO years ago and I'm now around 150-170.

In terms of liver enzymes, the one that's been high has been GGT, but it's come down and now just a tad higher than normal. THe other two enzimes are normal.

Glucose level, is around 5.5-5.6, where normal range is max 5.5.

Chlosterol is 5.75 (max normal range is 5.2) and LDL is 3.9. So I'm not super high and doctors think I just need to lose weight and levels will come down.

Thank you all for your help! It's frustrating that I went from a guy who couldn't wait to take his shirt off to one who is afraid of going swimming.

Dacky's picture

No stacks and no clen. Yes because of your overall physical stats and your health issues. I would recommend it to anyone with your stasts even if they had no health issues. Weight and fat loss needs to be done with diet and lifestyle changes not drugs. As you're low T getting this sorted out will certainly help but there is much more to it than just the low T.

You say it's difficult to lose weight lately but can you elaborate? What exactly have you tried to do this? Can you describe you average days diet in detail? When you've been trying to lose weight how much and what exercise have you been doing? How many hours sleep per night do you get? How many hours per day do you work? Is it a desk based job? On a scale of 1 to 10 how would you rate your stress levels over the past 6 months at work and at home? Any other health issues? What other medication are you being prescribed or self prescribing? How much alcohol do you drink? Do you smoke? Do you take other illegal drugs? These questions were asked before but you didn't answer. No judgement here bro. We simply need the facts if we are to help you properly. If you would rather move this conversation to PM then shoot me a FR and I'm happy to have this chat with you in private.

Abc458's picture

Not a smoker, no drugs, not a drinker, only drink casually on weekends, max 2-3 beers. Like a 6 pack lasts a month in my home. I am in Software industry, desk job, work min 10hrs a day, sometimes 14-16hrs a day, work most weekends too, travel once a month long haul, sleep is around 5-6hrs on good days, sometimes 3-4 if I have morning calls at work (like 5am), life is super stressed.

Regular diet is not the best, but not the worst either, I don't do junk food, chips, etc... try healthier options when eating out, and at home mostly make my own dinner. I also have severe Asthma (have had it all my life), and take Asthma inhalers (cortizone) daily.

When trying to lose weight, I cut carbs, substitute some food with protein shake, eat as clean as possible, green leafs and low fat protein, do 3-4 days/week of 16 Mile bike rides, weight training 2-3 times a week and generally increase physical activities. This ALWAYS worked until 2 years ago. I could easily lose 15 pounds or so.

I think the key difference is work stress that has increased significantly over the last 2yrs, and somehow my low T.

Dacky's picture

Any questions or comments on what I set out for you below?

Dacky's picture

Thanks for your answers. I've also been following your conversation with GearHead with interest. I think I have a decent understanding of what happening with you. My overarching comment is that you need to make some life-style adjustments or your health is only going to continue to suffer. The problem that you have is that much of the issues seems to stem from you not having a good enough work/life balance. It is a daunting task facing up to this but as I very senior executive myself I encourage you to have an open and honest conversation with your company (your boss and HR) about addressing this point. It is in theie best interests to support you. If they're a good company they will understand this and if not well you have choice.

This is what I think you need to do.

Step 1 address your diet
This is critical. Your nutrition is the cornerstone upon which everything else rests. If this is not right then everything else will suffer and become much harder than it needs to be.

For your stats and assuming you can get to the gym and meaningfully lift 3 times per week your Total Daily Energy Expensiture (TDEE) is approximately 3500 calories per day. From what I've read I suspect you are eating on overage well in excess of this and your activity is too low to support this intake (nevermind the choice of foods (your macros) are likely poor. We need to get you into a moderate deficit to see you losing weight. So we will subtract 500 calories per day from there to get you to 3000 calories per day. This need to be made up of the following macros - Protein 250g, carbs 250g and fats 110g. You are going to need to start tracking everything you eat and drink. Now my concern here is given your work requirements I am worried this may be too much for you to manage. I am not sure we're you live but perhaps you can look into a food prep service that prepares your meal for you for each day of the week. You mentioned you go out a lot to eat with clients etc and travel so this needs to be factored in. There is unfortunately no easy way around this. If you are going to do all your own food prep then make sure you are chosing only whole food options for your sources of food. So lean meats and fish for protein (and some of your fats), low GI sources of carbs (lots of vegetables, some fruit, oats, sweet potato, butternut etc). For fats good fats from avocado, coconut oil, nuts etc it perfect. What you want to be doing is limiting the amount of processed food you're eating and remove high GI and/or sugary carbs and no bad fats. When you're out with clients you will need to make careful food choices and special requests to help limit the damage done here. Cut out any alcohol - even the couple of beers you're having and don't drink on your work dinners. These are empty and useless calories that will make you and keep you fat.

Step 2 - Training and exercise
We have to get you consistently training and your activity up to support your fat/weight loss and general health. Given you can only lift 3 times per week this is what I suggest:
Day 1
Flat Bench Press 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Back Squat 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Dead lifts 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Incline dumbbell flies 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Bent over row 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Tricep pushdown 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps

Day 2
Flat Bench Press 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Back Squat 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Dead lifts 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Leg curls 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Leg extensions 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Calf raises 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps

Day 3
Flat Bench Press 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Back Squat 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Dead lifts 5 sets x 5 reps as heavy as possible without compromising form
Seated dumbbell shoulder press 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Lat pull downs 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps
Standing barbell bicep curls 3 sets x 8 - 12 reps

This should get your started and into a lifting regime. I would run this for 8 weeks minimum and focus on your form and progressively overloading your weights by slowly increasing your weights so you can get through all the sets and reps and not fail. Record everything so you can track your progress.

Cardio - you need to start by doing low impact steady state cardio as often as possible. I suggest 4 times minimum per week but you can do this everyday of IU can. What I find works best for many who struggle with time is to make this part of their daily commute. So plan it out so that you can do a fast walk for 40 mins to and hour on an empty stomach on your way to work.

Step 3 - stress reduction
Taking the above two steps will help you have better control of your life and getting exercising will help with reducing your stress levels. That said you need to have the conversations with your employer about what is happening with your health and wellbeing. And they should support you in whatever way I can allowing you to work fewer hours and or giving you additional support/resources to better manage your bandwidth. If they're smart they will realise it could cost them more long term in not addressing this with you now. The goal here is for you to have time to eat properly and consistently (not out so much), reduce your hours in the office/working, ensure you have time to exercise and time away from the office on weekends and in the evenings to recharge and rest.

These steps do not need to be sequential or done in a particular order. The sooner you get all this in place the sooner you will address you're personal health and wellbeing and in a roundabout way you become more resilient and more productive in the long term. This with the trt program the doctor is putting you on should see well on your way to a better and healthier life.

Good luck and I'm happy to help with any advice I can offer.

Edit - apologies for all the spelling and grammatical errors. I'm typing this on my phone.

Abc458's picture

Hey man, THANK YOU SO MUCH! Wow, amazing advice... I will try to start changing my lifestyle, I think it's 100% causing me health issues and I need to make changes.

Now, I have some AMAZING NEWS! I just saw my specialist today, and after 2 mos of taking the Gel T, at 5mg a day, plus losing 5lbs, everything has LITERALLY COME BACK TO NORMAL!

Wow, I am incredibly shocked how drastically thing have changed, my Testosterone went from 153 to 675! WOW! My Cholesterol is now in the normal range, so is HDL/LDL, my Glucose fasting is now down to normal, and GTG is also back to normal... literally 2.5mos of Testosterone has made such incredible changes. I've had slight higher Cholesterol, and higher Glucose levels for 3 years and it's all normal now.

I am ecstatic, my doc said to take the next 6 mos to lose as much weight as I can, then slowly roll off the gel and that's what I am gonna do, taking your advice to heart.

Cheers!

PS. I am in Canada....

Dacky's picture

That's great to hear bro. Your doc sounds like he has the right plan. You have he blueprint to changing your lifestyle, losing weight/fat and finding a happy balance. Over to you now. Happy To help with diet and/or training advise along the way. Oh and do discuss a proper PCT plan with your doc when the time is right to restart your natty test production. Good luck.