Cycle twice a year, or TRT?
Friends, I’ve done lots of reading here and haven’t seen anyone address this question directly.
My situation probably isn’t that unique, so I’m hoping this discussion will add to the immense data collected here on eroids.
I’m almost 39 years old, I have low T (last number was at 320 three months ago). The effects of low T have taken their toll. I’m sore a lot when I just flat out shouldn’t be, I’m lethargic, mentally foggy, low libido, all of it. The only two symptoms i don’t have (yet) are that I can still grow a beard and still get it up when it’s time to fool around with my wife. Other than that, my quality of life certainly has diminished to a slow slog as my 30s are creeping by.
I’ve got two young boys, and I’ve had a vasectomy. No more babies for this Greek Mexican. I just want to be strong and healthy for them, my wife, my aging parents, and the other people who depend on me.
Even with "good insurance," I’ve spent over 2 grand with my doc and endocrinologist doing blood tests and having consult after consult. Everything appears to be “fine.” Thyroid numbers look good, liver numbers are in the sweet spot, blood pressure is normal, blah blah blah. The big red flag is my T. Both of them simply have said, “your total T is in the low range for normal, but you’ve got plenty of “free T” so we’re not prescribing you any medicine.”
I’ve tried all of the typical suggestions to “boost T naturally.” Lift hard, sleep well, eat clean, take supplements, vitamins, boosters, etc. I’m simply a man who genetically is on the long, slow shut down, just WAY too early in my life.
I left my Endo's office that day completely beat down and kind of hopeless. A simple "low T" google search sent me down paths that brought me to a few forums where I learned a few things, but then eventually brought me here. I've been hooked.
Admittedly, I have learned more from the collective knowledge & experience on eroids than I feel I could learn if I went to a friggin med school. Compounds, accessories, methods of administrating those compounds, timing, etc, not to mention how to get blood work done often enough to know what’s going on internally at less than half the friggin price as what the docs office charges me, EVEN THOUGH I'M GETTING BLOOD DRAWN AT THE EXACT SAME BLOOD LAB IN MY TOWN!!! I digress. Back to topic.
With this knowledge, I’m considering two options.
- Do a 12 week cycle of just Test Cyp 500mg weekly, do a solid 2 week PCT two weeks after last cyp pin, then see how my body responds.
- Try three months of 200mg Test Cyp weekly, and go from there.
Either way, I plan to get bloodwork done before I start, as well as at 6 weeks, at 12 weeks, and again at 18 weeks. (Is this excessive? Or should I do tests every 4 weeks? I can afford it, so it doesn’t seem excessive to me, but I’m still learning.)
If I choose to cycle, assuming it’s successful, my thought is, two 12 week cycles a year.
I’ve done nothing yet regarding AAS. I still lift, and I assume I’ll lift until they put me in the ground. The gym is my mental therapy as much as anything. Getting a boost from AAS sounds nice, but it’s not my primary goal.
My primary goals for AAS are:
- Get back to a healthy state of being.
- Pin as little as possible to feel good.
- Not be a lethargic piece of shit all of the time.
- Have a leaner physique.
- Any strength or size gains are simply bonus.
I’m only committed to LEARNING for now! I’m not committed to any protocol. I simply want to learn from all of you who are willing to share.
Does anyone here have any thoughts on this matter? If you were me, and you knew what you know right now, do either of these options seem like sound choices? Cycle twice a year? Or just try to get back to feeling good on my own by self administered TRT?
Friends, I thank you all so much for your time, for sharing your experiences, and for your immensely good mojo. It’s because of all of you, I have hope that my future will be better than my present.
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Thyroid ?????
@KMC, my doc apparently looked at my thyroid numbers and said, "they all look normal." Then again, my test looks "normal" and I certainly feel like I'm not the wanna be rock star that I want to be! Alas, I'm learning, piece by piece.
Thyroid is more than just a TSH score. My TSH was in the low 4.0's. But I was probably in worse shape than you. At times if I pushed to fight through the fatigue, I would just about collapse. 2 hours after awaking, my mind would start to shut down........and the list goes on. Your symptoms sound way to familiar to me.
@KMC, brother, knowing what you know now, what would you do in my shoes?
I'm guessing, start with blood work, but I don't even know what to look for in my blood work numbers, let alone what to actually have them test for. What metrics am I looking for?
I'm sending a FR to ask you more about this! Thank you for taking your time to help me, too.
Jan 23, 2013
Testosterone: 493
(This was when I really noticed that I was lethargic, foggy and lacking in libido. I didn’t get a full hormone blood panel done, cuz to be honest, I didn't know what questions to ask, so I didn't know what data to gather. I simply felt shitty, so this was when I really focused on reincorporating squats & deadlifts back into my lifting, as well as getting back on 5g creatine daily. I’ve been pretty consistent with creatine and the "big lifts" since then.)
Jan 8th, 2015
Testosterone 322
(I knew that hormones had to be at play by this point in my life. I really just generally felt like shit, so my doc referred me to an endo. Here’s the blood test he ordered.)
March 27th, 2015
Testosterone: 424ng/dl
Testosterone, FREE: 86.0
Testosterone %FREE: 2.0
SHBG 28
I’ve never gotten my estradiol tested. Again, until eroids, it's never occurred to me that I should test for that. For what it’s worth, I don’t have symptoms of high estrogen. I certainly meet all the criteria for low T.
@IrishMack, I’m gonna try to figure out how to scan these bastards, black out names & addresses to protect the (not so) innocent, then upload them.
I really am eager to learn more about blood work from you and others, what is “ideal,” and the best course of action to take going forward.
424 total is average as range is 300-1000 but certainly not trt worthy. The older we get, the lower the numbers and as long as you are at minimum 100 over low you are fine. Free test is higher then normal for your age as the mean value is 20-25 pg/ml which is also good. That should trigger them to give you a full blood panel. what is your e2 numbers? Without seeing that I will say you are normal at that range from March. Have them check your thyroid because just because you have low energy and low sex drive does not mean its test related.
what you havent told anyone is your numbers, what was total test. what was free test. what was lsh. what was e2. better yet, post your lab and edit out your name and location. Everyone here will tell you to self medicate apparantly without seeing the true numbers. Its not a game to be on trt, you are a slave and if anyone thinks for 1 second its great is an idiot. Post the numbers and I will tell you choices.
@IrishMack, you're right! I didn't share numbers. Foolish of me, cuz I've seen other people ask specific questions and get the same response: "share your bloodwork data." My apologies. Numbers will follow.
I admit, after leaving my endo's office this spring, I was quite down trodden. I feel exhausted for 75% of each day, regardless of whether my sleep was good or not. I can't remember where I've put things (keys, coffee cups, etc) and I'm just flat out "not me." My doc looked at my numbers and simply more or less said, "your blood work might be the low end of normal, but it doesn't concern me, so I'm not prescribing you anything for now."
I've learned that some guys feel fucking great at a T level of 400, others feel like dog shit at 600. @IrishMack, I promise you, I'm not cavalier with the idea of simply throwing chemicals into my body. The only thing I have not tried yet is to go 100% gluten free, but the fact is, I'd be blown away if it's something that simple. My body has never reacted poorly to bread (other than the fact that I easily over eat it) but it's the one thing I'm trying. I'm on day 4 of gluten free, and I figure I'll try this for a few months to see if I feel any better.
As for being a slave to a needle, I don't like that idea at all.
I don't like the idea of being addicted to ANYTHING, including coffee, beer, or even the gym, let alone powerful compounds that I would illegally be obtaining in the U.S. You have no idea how much I appreciate your candid share, here. Thank you very, very much.
I'll be posting my last two blood labs here on this comment thread.
With high free test, there are a number of things you can do to help with low regular. Always think of trt as a last resort as it can get expensive with some insurances and like vhman says you also need to constantly monitor your liver, blood hemocrit, ai dose, e.t.c. Once we see all the numbers there could be something as simple as clomid or even Nolva to boost it. Even something simple as arimidex has been known to increase test as it lowers estro.
Dude, if it were as simple as nolva or clomid, HOLY CRAP, that would be so bad ass!!! Please don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid of needles. However, if I can avoid that road, that's fine by me.
I'm at a fairly simple place. "Get better." (Working on it!) Thank you so much for your help.
Truer words have not been said. TRT is a total pain and I wish that I didn't have to be on it. Besides the pinning and all that goes with that, you have to always be on top of your BP, estro, liver values, etc. It's a constant worry and hassle. Guys think, "Hey, I could always be on cycle and that would be swell!" Wrong and wrong. TRT is not a cycle, but it has most of the issues a cycle does.
I would try every route before I ever went on TRT, if I had to do it over again or if I am advising anyone.
@vhman, you've been an awesome help to me in my learning process. Seriously, thank you.
One thing I'm so grateful to the peeps here on eroids is, peeps just flat out say it like it is. I've talked to so many men on TRT that all say, "it's the best decision I've ever made!" However, here, there are so many more voices saying, "look, I've gone through this shit, and you don't want any part of it." I am a good listener and I'm eager as fuck to learn.
Since my goals aren't related to physique or athletic levels, it's hard for me to know what questions I should be researching. "General health," or "feeling of wellness" is so damn subjective. Yes, data helps, and blood data tells a hell of a story, but again, since I know how I feel with these numbers, I simply ASSUME that testosterone is the right "medicine" for my present state of being.
I'm not jumping the gun. Nope.
I've got more to learn, no doubt.
I simply am not me, or at least the version of me that I feel like I COULD be, and the thought of feeling like this forever is so depressing, it's awful. Again, I'm too old to be dumb and just start playing with pills and needles. Plus, I've got family and loved ones whom I'm committed to that still need me to be the healthiest I can be, even if it's my current state of being. If this is what they get, so be it, I'll kick as much ass for them as my tired body and foggy brain allows!
@whman, it is warnings like yours that remind me, there's no easy answer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't get on TRT under any circumstance, only to do all possible to stay off it. Once you've exhausted your options, then you can take the jump.
TRT does help with all that you said, but there are lots of things people don't talk about and it gets old over time. I'm grateful that I feel and look better, but I HATE pinning and knowing that I'll have to pin the rest of my life. I also have to keep a close eye on my BP, cholesterol, liver values, RBC increase, estro issues, acne, etc. No one ever talks about all that. It's manageable, but it's not picnic.
Just want people to know the FULL story before they take the jump and to try other things before they do.
Best of luck.
Brother, THANK YOU for sharing your full version of the story! I'm keenly aware, in life, every action has a reaction. Sure, medicine can cure an ailment, but is the cost worth it? (I'm not talking about financial cost. I'm talking holistically here.)
The three biggies for boosting T naturally that I see over and over are:
1. Get more sleep.
2. Have meaningful sex (and stop pulling it to porn).
3. Lift heavy shit.
For me, sleep is getting better as my kiddos age. I've never had the "gotta watch porn" gene in my brain, and sex with my old lady is simply hit or miss at this point as we raise our tyrants. As for lifting, check. So for me, no amount of vitamin D, fish oil, test boosters, miracle vitamin mixes that my friends sell, or even trying to go vegan for awhile have helped my lethargy. I'm certain they all contribute to help in some way, but low T seems to be my biological fate.
I'm sort of grasping at straws at this point to fix it without medicine. My current attempt to simply avoid all gluten is kind of my last attempt to fix this natty. I've never been a soda drinker, and I've even switched to drinking more tea instead of so much coffee (and much of the tea I drink is herbal, caffeine free, just to cut back on caffeine). I've been so lethargic that I've really depended on caffeine, but going back to past statements, fuck me, I don't want to be "addicted" to anything, ever. In my case, if it's medicine, so be it. Still, I'm not jumping the gun. If it really is something as simple as nolva, clomid, or some HCG, that works fine for me too!
No one can make this decision for you, it's potentially a life changing one. The two main routes, as I see it, would be trying hcg and or clomid to see of your body is capable of producing test at all. Sometimes if you can jump start your testes they can continue to produce at some sort of higher level. The second choice is trt, which is quite a big commitment. Personally I would do almost anything to avoid that significant of a commitment. Although, living a life with very low test would be worse.
As some of the other guys have pointed out, cycling would only make the situation worse and complicate the matter.
@Shiva, thank you for sharing this too. I'm still learning about HCG, and admittedly, I only know clomid is usually used in PCT. Other than that, I don't know enough about that compound and what it can do. Obviously, I'm still learning! You've given me a few more avenues to research. Thank you.
I feel you bro... I'm 39 with countless cycles under my belt but I'm staying away from trt...Once you are on TRT there is no coming back and the TRT clinics push it like friggin tic tacs..... After my last cycle my natty test, after proper pct, was 168 and my manhood was as limp as a leaf.. I started running 50 mgs of pharma clomid stand alone (25mg in the am/25mg in the pm) and I noticed an instant difference... Morning wood was back... I pulled bloods on it and they my total test shot up to 640.. Now I cycle twice a year with low dose cycles but off cycle I take pharma clomid daily.. It has made a world of difference... Good luck...
@SwaySway, dude, thank you for sharing this! Do you use clomid daily the whole time you're off cycle? As in, two pills daily for three months at a time?
I would suggest try hgh or ghrp's will help recovery and even boost test a little. Also there is a peptide called DSIP Delta Sleep Inducing Peptide that will boost LH that will help elevate your testosterone as well. It's worth a try before self administering trt, I'm 43 yrs old and feel great, I think you could try this and have great success. Send me a friend request if you need any advice brother.
@humpnpump, I'm definitely learning, so thank you! FR sent.
I was in your shoes 6 months ago and im 43. Go trt and dont look back, find a different doc-a urologist who will let you do home inject-its the way to go. Your t wont come back like your 30's, try a low t center they test you in the afternoon when your low and insurance will cover it. Then transfer to a uro.
@bigead, I'm pretty resolved to taking care of this myself. I've spent a lot of money and headache with the doctors, and in the end, they literally know 1/10th of the time with hormones as the peeps here on eroids. This place has been a much better (and cheaper!) education for me, no doubt.
I understand and I had the same headaches. I finally found a decent doc and my script is a 10.00 co pay. On the other hand if I lost my insurance, then I would be on the ugl path. Good luck!
I would blast and cruise. Just gotta keep up with blood work and checkups to make sure you're staying healthy.
@Rocky76, A lot of people seem to choose this route. I've come to the conclusion that I'd be fine running a cycle and working my ass off to make the most of it. However, I'm not in any athletics anymore, nor do I have any desire to compete in anything at this point in my life. The only thing I mentally need is the gym. Yeah, I should probably go for a jog a few times a week, but running isn't nearly as relaxing to me as frying my muscles. Thus, I know that testosterone is the right medicine for my current condition. Ah, the joys of getting older.
Bro looking up anti aging clinics or Wellness center's.
You need trt! Cycling will only fuck you up more cause it will be harder to recover. if you can't find one there are also clinics where everything is via online and they just have get blood work and compounding labs send you the script.
@juiceball, thank you for sharing this too! I really appreciate it. I've sent you a FR. I'm curious simply to RESEARCH these places and learn more.
Resend it
mikeyg4321+1 bro and I agree with juice here, cycling is gona be a no-no. You have issues right now before starting aas and you won't recover to even what you're at now most likely.
@mikeyg, thank you for sharing your input too! Man, eroids peeps just flat out tell it like it is. I appreciate this kind of approach to communication SO MUCH.
Regarding 200mg weekly of cyp for TRT, it sounds like the wiser choice is something like 100mg/week to start until efficient blood levels have been reached. Wish I'd have read this page first before spouting off "200mg cyp/weekly." My apologies.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/over-40-trt/the-perefect-trt-therapy
mikeyg4321I was talking to my doc and he said the usual sweet spot is .7cc which is 140mg of test cyp for the average male to get them in the sweet spot .
@mikeyg, thank you for sharing this! I've read lots of conflicting stuff regarding dosing for TRT, but as always, the default answer seems to be, "IT DEPENDS." Blood work data doesn't lie. Get numbers back from blood work and adjust accordingly. Thank you again for sharing!
That's exactly where I'm at.