+ 16 Effects of tren & test on genes affecting muscle growth
I was reading journal articles posted in threads and searching Pubmed for others when I came across this relatively new article in the September 2014 issue of Steroids:
"Transcriptional regulation of myotrophic actions by testosterone and trenbolone on androgen-responsive muscle"
Read http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0039128X14001378 for the abstract.
Rats were castrated and then given either testosterone or trenbolone and the effects on genes controlling muscle growth were measured. Sure, it's not a perfect model for humans, but what do you think ethics committees will approve anyway?
For startrers both steroids enhanced muscle regeneration that occurred after castration and both elevated expression of the anabolic genes IGF1 and MGF. Atrogene (for atrophy) expression was reduced by both although trenbolone produced greater suppression (+1 for tren).
Most interesting was that tren suppressed increases in glucocorticoid receptor (GR) expression while test did not (+2 for tren). I've often read about tren antagonizing catabolism by blocking GR but perhaps tren is stopping the GR from being made in the first place?
I'll elaborate a little. I've always thought that tren blocked GR in the same way that Narcan (naloxone) blocks opioid receptors when someone overdoses on heroin or oxycodone. Perhaps tren is a little more sophisticated than that and is actually blocking the genes that code for GR so there are less GR receptors being made and less to activate?
Interesting.
Dr B
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Bump!
Some Really interesting reading
Thanks for the bump! I forgot how good this is!
Not trying to sound like a homo bro.....but I find your forum posts fascinating.
Your a genius mate always find myself re-reading your posts and to be honest eroids needs more!
Thanks buddy ;)
Great article. Ive read that halo, like tren does block glucocorticoid receptor activation, but it also increases cortisol production. I wonder if aggression is also dependent on glucocorticoid activity.
How are you making that leap bud? I always figured the aggression was because in trens case, it's 5 times more adrogenic than test.
So where test has an anabolic to androgenic rating of 100:100 tren is 500:500.
Im not too sure about glucortoroid deprivation in humans, but theres some studies on rats. Heres an interesting study about glucortoroids and aggression, but of course its on rats. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24515548. Whats strange about halotestin is that it has very weak binding to AR but very strong binding to GR. Could be other factors that influence aggression we still dont know about.
Defintely right about androgenic ratio and aggression, cheque drops and methyltren all have off the chart androgenic ratios and dramatically increase aggression.
Damn that's awesome. Thank you for linking to this. I love this stuff!
+2
Sound like a fat woman wants her chocolate!
Sure bro, androgens and PEDS always interested me.
Interesting. Nice find and good write up. +2
This is a great synopsis of the article! Thank you!
+2
I have a theory that this ties into well about tren and glucocorticoid receptors. Since the receptors are being blocked, carbs have to go through a process of gluconeogenesis. This is a process where fat and carbs are converted to glucagon to be shuttle by tglut (an amino that comes to the surface of the cells to transport glucagon into the cell walls), typically carbs are converted to glycogen or to fat through a process called lyponeogenisis. The reason this is relevant to me is because cortisol is staved off and carbs and fat are ever burning, stress hormone is not allowed to catabolize muscle through protein lypolisis but anabolic properties have the perfect positive nitrogen and glycogen surplus to grow. So you have a fat burning muscle growing furnace while on tren.
Now I just need to tie this bullshit theory to having a rebound hypoglycemic episode during sleep after eating heavy carbs late at night. Because of the tren, insulin levels spike abnormally high after eating especially high glycemic carbs. Being that there is very low cortisol when it is supposed to be especially high (at night), there is no system in place to offset the insulin spike. That would explain the hypoglycemic symptom during sleep. Vivid dreams, night sweats and fever chills are all typical symptoms of a glocose crash. I think it might be advantageous to eat carbs at night and than have some sort of high glycemic food near the bed so you can spike Insulin again when waking from from an episode. I know it sound crazy but since your in an anticatibolic state and you're burning fat and carbs to create glycogen, glucagon and ketones that are constantly being shuttles to muscle cells, why not keep the furnace burning all the time. The second insulin spike would allow you to stay anabolic and sleep at the same time! I have different ideas on how to collect data on this theory and I plan on doing it in next few weeks.
Remember this is just a theory based on Carb Back Loading and tren papers I have read in different journals. We will see. I have a lot more to formulate and then postulate before I can write anything intelligent. This is still all pretty new with the science of dieting and why tren reacts with humans the way that it does.
The article posted above is a huge find! Thanks again!
Once again, you make my brain hurt trying to process this. So you are saying basically to embrace the night sweats instead of actively trying to prevent them?
I know it sounds crazy. I will have more concrete data to go on in the next several months. But yes. Sweating while on cycle is typically because your body is burning calories. Because tren is shutting down the bodies natural response to the fight or flight response, (Fight or flight adrenaline goes up and insulin spikes for immediate energy and soon after cortisol is released to calm the body down), cortisol is not produced and or is blocked. Just like OP article above. So the alternative is to burn carbs and fat using a highly inefficient process which take even more energy for the conversion. The down side is what appears to be an insulin crash or hypoglycemia.
For me personally I never mind the sweats as long as I have a constant air flow on me. I know I am getting cut in my sleep and feel accomplished when I wake up!!! LOL! The biggest issue I have with tren is the lack of quality sleep. I do think that eating something when waking up during the night will spike insulin again and allow you to go back to sleep. I will be conducting personal studies over the next several months as I am getting ready to start a tren cycle.
I am entering week 7 of Parabolan, compared to tren ace I have had minimal night sweating but I have also been pretty tight with carbs for dinner and after dinner so it is as I expected. I will toy with it for the next week or so and blast some carbs before bed and see what happens. I don't mind the sweats so much as long as it doesn't turn into uncontrollable shivering, that is no fun at all, lol
Yeah brother let me know! When it gets to the shivering is when it has become a rebound hypoglycemic episode. I think at that point if you have a quick bite of some high glycemic carb they should go away until waking.
It has only happened to me like three times. But I ain't gonna lie that shit is kinda scary. Now that we are into the warm weather I don't know that it can happen now anyway. The other episodes were all in the winter. One other pretty neat thing I have noticed about para is your urine stays fairly normal coloring.
I am in week 6 on Tren, and I embrace the sweating too. I really think its a mental boost to fat burning if that makes sense. Just my personal experience on Tren and carbs throughout the night is I do drink a protein shake when I wake up. Syntha-6 to be exact. I keep two shaker bottles made up with 2% raw milk, made by farlife. I sometimes don't even remember waking up and drinking them. I actually gain lean muscle with the extra 60+ grams of protein throughout the night, and I am not bloated, if anything it keeps me sweating more, keeping that furnace burning at night : )
So how much carbs and what kind are they that you are consuming during the night? Also are you on tren ace or enanthate? Finally, how are you getting the kind of sleep where you do not remember waking up to drink a protein shake?!!!!
I'm on Tren E, about to switch to ace for 3-4 weeks as I come off Tren. The good sleep is really hit or miss, I would say making myself stay up till 1030/11 vs trying to fall asleep at 9 really helps. If I push myself that extra hour and a half, I find myself it hibernation till 530 am and a couple sleep walk protein shakes lol.. Carbs are 40-60 grams from milk and protein.
I don't want to hijack this thread but you are kind of validating my point. Go buy a glucose monitor and check your blood sugar before bed and at the sleep walk shake time. I bet you might be surprised.
haha, I am ahead of ya, one is currently in the mail
i'll keep ya posted, im hoping 90-110. We shall see
Even as low as 70 isnt bad if youre in a fasted state (havent eaten in over 4 hours)
true, I feel shaky that low though. Do you feel that way when you haven't ate in 4hrs+?
Steveb.
Dr B,
This is so far over my head, my head is spinning. What exactly does the glucocorticoid receptor do? In layman's terms please.
GH
AnonActivation of GR causes catabolism, the opposite to anabolism. Muscle breakdown.
Activation of the androgen receptor (AR) causes anabolism (anabolic steroids).
So it seems tren's edge over other compounds may be that as well as activating AR it also blocks GR but not at the receptor. It seems it may stop GR being made in the first place.
HTH
Hmm is that why my muscle break down tissue came back being 1200?
AnonCreatine kinase levels are elevated when there is muscle damage but heavy lifting is enough to put them out of range.
The micro tears are the stimulus for growth.
It can worry some doctors when they're using the test to look for potential toxicity from some drugs like statins used to lower cholesterol.
Try not lifting for a couple of days before the test if your doctor is concerned.
Thanks brother! Also great info this all made my head hurt! I have to go do some research on some of this before I can comprehend it!
Wow that is an amazing find.. +1
Thanks for breaking that down. Very interesting bro.
Thanks bro! +2