+ 12 HGH Dosing Protocol- info that had me change my approach
So like most of you I'm constantly reading and researching. I have a science background so anytime I come across studies I'm intrigued. Recently I came across more HGH information that I haven't seen before. Currently I'm running some really good gh and I'm always looking to maximize my dosing protocols. After reading the following information it had me thinking again... I'm 33 so I moved my 4iu dose to before bed but 5 days a week I want to run 6ius. My plan was to take 3ius post workout and 3ius before bed. However, after reading this information I think a better alternative would be to take my first 3iu dose when I wake up IM with protein shake and then my second 3iu dose SQ before bed.
The reason I split my 6iu dose up is due to reading evidence that our liver can only process up to 4ius at a time when making IGF-1. So if ur doing over 4ius you should split it with at least 3 hours between doses.
I believe the information makes sense. I've gained some more knowledge on the use of gh and I wanted to share it with my fellow eRoid members and hear what you have to say on this theory.
Medical/Scientific Study on HGH - this changed how I dosed:
The study was in a 2000 edition of The Journal of Endocrinology and of is titled: Exogenous 20K Growth Hormone (GH) Suppresses Endogenous 22K GH Secretion in Normal Men. You should know two things from this:
a. this is a scientific and empirical study in a respected medical journal. This means the result are RELIABLE. This is going to give you the best data. Not "my friend is HUGE and he said to take HGH like this......". Your friends good results could be the result of genetics, steroids, training, diet, etc.... And he may be able to have obtained even better results with a better dosing regimen.
b. The study was done on 32 healthy men. Again this a large sample. Importantly, these are healthy men. Most of the other studies may not be very applicable to bodybuilders since they are designed to test children's responses in height gains by HGH. Since Universities and Medical Research Facilities are likely not going be doing studies on bodybuilders any time soon, the study on these 32 healthy adult males is as good of one as we will likely have.
Here is the ABSTRACT which I will then summarize (I have a degree in Chemical Sciences).
The physiological and pharmacological functions of the 20-kDa
human GH (20K-hGH) isoform are unknown. We conducted a pharmacokinetic study of recombinant 20K-hGH in human subjects
(Phase I clinical trial). Placebo or 20K-hGH was administered sc to
normal men (20–31 yr of age, n 5 6–8 per group) at 2100 h. Serum
20K- and 22K-hGH levels were monitored every 30 min for 24 h by
specific enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays. Serumfree fatty acid,
insulin-like growth factor I, insulin, and glucose levelsweremeasured
for 24 h. In the placebo group, the secretion profiles of endogenous
20K- and 22K-hGH were pulsatile and similar to each other. The
proportion of 20K- to 22K-hGH was fairly constant. In the 20K-hGHtreated groups, serum20K-hGH levels increased in a dose-dependent
manner over the dose range of 0.01–0.1 mg/kg. Maximum serum
20K-hGH levels were reached at 3–4 h and decreased with half-lives
of 2–3 h. Marked suppression of endogenous 22K-hGH secretion was
observed in a time-dependent manner. Serum free fatty acid and
insulin-like growth factor I levels were significantly elevated (P ,
0.01) at 4, 8, and 12 h and at 8, 12, and 24 h after 20K-hGH administration, respectively. Serum insulin and glucose levels did not
change significantly within 24 h. These results suggested that: 1)
regulation of 20K-hGH secretion is physiologically the same as that
of 22K-hGH; 2) the pharmacokinetics after sc injection of 20K-hGH
are comparable with those of 22K-hGH; 3) 20K-hGH regulates hGH
secretion through “GH-induced negative feedback mechanisms”; and
4) administration of 20K-hGH is expected to exert GH actions
(growth-promoting activity and lipolytic activity). Monitoring of serum20K- and 22K-hGH levelsmay be useful in evaluating the effects
of administered GH isoforms on their own release from the pituitary.
Translation: HGH is dose dependent. Max levels are reached at between 3-4 hrs. Serum free fatty acid (FFA) levels begin max elevation at 4 hours also, but remain elevated for 24 hrs. You will see why this is important.
DISCUSSION:
The marked suppression of endogenous 22K-hGH secretion occurred in parallel with the FFA elevation; serum FFA
levels increased with maximum levels at 4–8 h and recovered by 24 h after 20K-hGH administration. In contrast, serum IGF-I levels increased after 8 h and were prolonged up
to 24 h or more, and no increase in circulating glucose levels
was observed for 24 h. Our data are consistent with those of
Rosenthal et al. (34), who found that 6-hmethionyl 22K-hGH
infusion raised plasma FFA levels but not IGF-I or glucose
levels and blunted GHRH-induced GH secretion in normal
men. Of the main hGH-dependent substances, elevation of
FFA rather than IGF-I levels may play a leading role at least
in the marked 22K-hGH suppression at AUC6–12 h
after a
single sc administration of 20K-hGH. Administration of FFA
markedly reduced the basal GH secretion and blocked GH
secretion induced by pharmacological and physiological
stimuli in humans (23, 35). Recently, Briard et al. (36) reported
that FFA acts both at the hypothalamic level, through increased somatostatin secretion, and at the pituitary level in
sheep.
The suppression of 22K-hGHsecretionwas observed even
at the lowest dose of 20K-hGH administered (0.01 mg/kg),
with a Cmax
of 8.1 6 4.1 ng/mL. Rosenthal et al. (34) reported
that the GHRH-induced GH response in humans was significantly inhibited during 6-hmethionyl 22K-hGHinfusion,
whereas the plasma GH level remained constant (9–13 ng/
mL). Therefore, the effect of 20K-hGH on negative feedback
may be as potent as that of 22K-hGH.
TRANSLATION: The negative feedback loop on HGH is due to FFA. FFA reaches max between 4-8 hours after you pin, and remains elevated for 24 hours.
TAKE-AWAY: Shoot before bed subcutaneous. It takes longer for it begin the max effect of the HGH then does IM. Your max HGH pulse occurs at approximately 2 hrs after falling asleep. Your negative feedback doesn't really kick in till about 4-8 hours after shooting. And the negative feedback loop is about 24 hours. So you are clear again by bedtime where you will take your next shot. Again, your negative feedback won't really kick in till 4-8 hrs allowing your body to do its natural HGH production
Now if you shoot subcutaneous in the AM, remember that your levels remain elevated for 24 hours. You will be going to bed with still elevated levels this way.
I break my shots up into (1) bedtime subcutaneous to allow my HGH production to still occur naturally at its greatest release time; (2) AM shot upon rising that is done IM, since IM has a quicker clearance time and absorption time to allow my levels to again fall before bed (read a good amount of credible evidence on this too but too busy with law school and work to dig up my sources). Also HGH burns fat much better in a fasted state. (Id.) So I wait two hours after AM shot before eating b/c I am cutting and/or maintaining and don't eat carbs with 1st meal. If i was bulking I would probably shoot insulin and not worry about the fasting.
Additionally the whole idea of shooting before or after the gym is now pretty moot. HGH and IGF, not FFA, levels don't reach the levels we want till at least 4 and 8 hours respectively. And unless you go to bed right after gym, then you probably don't want to shoot then anyways..... otherwise you will be more severely messing with inhibiting your negative feedback loop by shooting that late in the day.
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My bed time is anywhere from 9 to midnight and I rise anywhere from 5 - 630am. My higher math skills suck.....I had been only pinning when if rise and have to use the head and then again as soon as I rise for good. Usually 5-30 then 6-630. This was definitely a good read....enough facts for me to change my regimen....So Pin 9p and then again between 5-630 would be fine? Splitting 6iu's using Nords.
AnonYes, pin right before bed (9pm) and then when u wake (5-630). 3ius each time. If not taking insulin no more he 4ius at a time. And make sure you have at least 4 hours between doses...
Good luck bro!
I spilt my dose am and before I go to bed. Does t4 mess with your sleep or have uou not started it yet
AnonI've started it and it doesn't mess with my sleep at all. Right now at 50mgs am and 50mgs at night.
AnonSome more info for you guys to check out.
Thyroid Hormone + Growth Hormone – If You Aren’t Using T4 with Your GH, You’re Not Doing It Right
http://thinksteroids.com/articles/thyroid-hormone-growth-hormone/
AnonT4 usage:
http://24hoursppc.org/blog/l-thyroxine-levothyroxine-sodiumt4/
So my plan...
Starting at 50mcg when I wake up amd run that for 3-4 days and then add 50mcg before bed . Then I think I may go to 75mcg and 75mcg after about 2 weeks and see how I feel there and stick with a total dosage of 150 a day.
Thanks for so good info bro! i´ve been runnin for some months HGH 4iu ED, on my last blood test my t4 leves were very low, far from the normal range, so i´ve started with t4 50mcg in the morning
AnonNice glad I could help. That's why this site is awesome. Once you feel good and things seem to go well. Bump up and add another 50mcg at night too. Remember not to take iron or calcium supplements around your dose that will mess with your absorption and take it on an empty stomach.
ok, but to be honest, dont you think 100mcg of t4 could be too much? I feel respect with T3 and t4 drugs, but maybe i will increase my dosagae 50mcg at night adn see whats happens, thanks again!!
AnonTake it slow and see how it body reacts to 50 once per day and go from there. Your body produces 109mcg through out the day of T4...
AnonSorry for typo my fat thumbs like to hit the 9 instead of 0 some times. Meant to say literature says the body produces 100mcg of T4 a day...
ok no problem! did you blood test to check your t4 levels while running hgh?
AnonNot In a long time... Last year they were boarder line normal low but can't embed how long I was on at that point...
Now I'm adding it to take advantage of not only replacing it but the higher conversion that occurs which would equate to better anabolic environment and better far loss all while not losing muscle.
+1 thank so much for your help!!
JuicedbankerNice read
"TAKE-AWAY: Shoot before bed subcutaneous. It takes longer for it begin the max effect of the HGH then does IM. Your max HGH pulse occurs at approximately 2 hrs after falling asleep. Your negative feedback doesn't really kick in till about 4-8 hours after shooting. And the negative feedback loop is about 24 hours. So you are clear again by bedtime where you will take your next shot. Again, your negative feedback won't really kick in till 4-8 hrs allowing your body to do its natural HGH production"
This pretty much supports what I've seen as well... Have now been running HGH for 4 weeks. Started pinning before bedtime but changed after two weeks to AM just to see if it feels any different. What I've seen is that my sleep was better and deeper when pinning before bed. It seems that my sleep is often interrupted and not as deep now with my AM schedule. Also seem to hit a phase every day around 4-5 pm when I feel super tired. I'll switch back to PM and see if it helps.
I usually do first thing upon wake up the PWO. I don't pin before bed, not trying to disturb whatever may gh I can get during REM. That's just me tho
nanobot-dnpBasically... Natural release is limited by physics. God couldn't make it be released optimally based on the properties of hgh and its effects. You don't want to ruin what you have so you need to consider that. Can I live with low natural HGH levels? (Even though I have never heard of that being a problem as it eventually comes back to acceptable levels even for guys doing it at night).
Then you want to consider your route of administration. IV would be optimal (its highly frowned upon to IV anything in the body building community) IM would be second but I always get knots from IM HGH so Ill never do that again. Easiest is SUBq but the release is slow and some of it is lost before it is released.
If your job was body builder your probably going to be IV ing almost everything you can. Your also probably not going to be on eroids either.
If you don't mind risking it take the highest dose you can stand throughout the day multiple times keeping your levels at their peek. The max that I would be able to tolerate would be the dose that doesn't give me any tingles.
Personally Im one of those low dose guys one time a day. not a body builder.
If I was body builder I would want to take it an hour before I worked out EOD at about 6iu indefinitely. I would also be cycling on and off of deca, micronized testosterone and hcg.
Well thats unusual! Normally even the wrongest posts have at least one piece of good information
Interesting info, which really throws me off now. I was reading the following when doing 2xD
http://www.getropin.com/hgh6.htm
" the body produces HGH is a pulsatile fashion throughout the day with the heaviest pulses occurring approximately 2-3 hours after going to bed as you fall into a deep sleep. Injectible HGH is completely absorbed and put to use within approximately 3 hours. The strategy with respect to timing depends somewhat on our age and the other elements of our cycle. As you will see below, there is no single best strategy … it depends a lot on your individual situation.
For those that are between their late 20’s and early 50’s, there is still a reasonable chance that your own endogenous production of HGH is still at a reasonable level. The best time to take and injection, this being the case, would be early morning …. After your body’s own release of HGH in the night. If you get up to go to the bathroom in the early morning, this is probably the perfect time to take a couple of units of HGH. This will be the least disruptive time to take an injection of HGH. The second best time would be first thing in the morning when you wake up.
If you are splitting your doses, two times of the day when your cortisol levels are at peak are when you wake up and in the early afternoon. Another good strategy is to take your HGH injections at these times. Cortisol is very catabolic by nature and a well -timed HGH injection can go a long way toward blunting this effect."
So I was going to take at about 6am and 3pm to help halting the Cortisol and letting my body naturally produce when I'm in a deep sleep, probably at around 1am or 10 hrs after the aft inj. Wouldn't this method overall work better?
AnonAccording to the study... The action of injected gh can affect ur own production for up to 24 hours. So u would be affecting ur production taken at 3pm. If taken IM this would be less then 24 hours but still may be affecting it own secretion. I am just interpreting the data they provided so...
However, if ur injecting gh. Your dose is over natural production anyway so in the whole scheme of things it doesn't matter ur getting plenty of gh. So essentially worrying about getting ur own secretion may be mute... I guess u could try a ghrh at bed... But not sure if its worth the extra $. Once u stop gh ur natural production will restart and from what I've read it not like testosterone production. It gh will pick right back up.
Thanks, great to know. I will only be doing 2iu 2xD and will ramp up to that dosage over a 2mnt period to try to avoid any sides
OK, I can't find my graphs from the Saizen study I was looking for, but I found a graph from a similar study on 20k HGH suppression of 22k HGH. The Saizen study shows similar results. In any case, this graph shows a fairly linear increase in IGF-1 with dosing going up to .1mg\kg, which for me a 225lbs = about 10mg or approx 30iu. So I would have to say the idea that your liver can only produce enough IGF-1 to support 4iu of HGH is wrong!
AnonCan u repost the link. Not working. Thanks!
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
Permalinkhttp://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/2/601/F4.expansion.html
I was trying to fix it when you replied, which means I can't edit that post any more. But heres the URL.
EDIT
Looking at the dosing again, its not really that linear and I can see what they mean sort of but it would still be above 4iu. The .025 dose for me would still be about 7-8iu.
AnonThanks!
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkAnonI found an article that supported the 4iu dose at one time:
""The main benefit of GH is its action on the liver to produce IGF-1," says Ali. "So, for this matter, it is important to know the capability of the liver in terms of how much GH it can use to get the maximum result/benefit. The liver can work with three to four IU of GH at a time and can do that twice a day with a reasonable gap of five to seven hours."
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ali_amini_gh_interview.htm
This was written back in 2009. What do you guys think? Has this theory changed. If your taking 6-8ius a day can you take it all at once and still get maximum IGF-1 conversion benefit??
you need insulin present for the maximum IGF conversion, dose of HGH does not matter
the liver could produce enough IGF to correlate positively with 20ius of HGH. In other words, dose of HGH can be MUCH higher than 3-4iu but it requires insulin to be elevated. HGH without slin = waste of money. hgh is not a standalone hormone, multiple hormones also need to be present, insulin is one of those hormones. If there is too much of a single hormone (hgh for example) then the body won't effectively or efficiently use the hormone. The endocrine system is all about balance. Think of testosterone for example. What happens when you have high test? then your estrogen goes up. Hormones are often antagonistic, or work together to perform optimally. HGH needs high insulin or you are just wasting the extra HGH because your body cannot convert as much IGF without insulin.
noob question i, if you have to take hgh on an empty stomach then wait 1hr to eat how are you suppose to inject insulin too? since you have to carb up not to go hypo
that's pointless to inject on an empty stomach. the reason being is NATURAL hgh levels go down in the presence of high insulin.
The thing is we are injecting EXOGENOUS HGH so it doesn't matter. you should be eating around each HGH injection a ton of aminos and proteins carbs too.
That's another common internet misconception a lot of people have bought. The thing is that only applies to natural hgh secretion. The whole thing goes out the window since our HGH levels will be elevated.
You can eat as much as you want, it will not blunt the effects of injected HGH whatsoever
So if my goal is fat loss and I inject first thing AM and do cardio fasted, I shouldn't even take bcaa's? must wait until later in the day for nutrition?
AnonNo you can take your bcaas and keep your nutrition on point. Exogenous gh will encourage fat stores to be released and utilized for energy. If you eat or take bcaas based on what I've read and researched this will not change the mechanisms of action at play with exogenous gh use. Take the gh first thing in the morning for fat loss it will mobilize fat stores and it will be used throughout the day.
AnonThis is exactly what I had thought and was talking to someone at work about this. Now what u said seems logical and is what I was saying only every time I tried to look it up I could find it. But really we are injecting it and forcing a peak so nothing can stop it as we are putting it into our system. I figured the only thing I might be missing is if food blunted its affects.
okay i get it, so for example, post work out,,, you take 2iu of gh, and 10iu of slin eat 60g of whey,80-100grams of dextrose, creatine, bcass,glutamine is not going to interrupt Gh levels from peaking??
i was always confused about it
You should inject the GH 30 mins after the novalin-R injection. The idea is to have the slin levels high during the whole duration of the Growth hormone peak. This allows growth hormone to work optimally and the combination will be extremely effective at pushing amino acids to the muscles post workout.
I'd consume a carton of egg whites as well immediately post injection since this is very fast acting protein. Along with the carbs, bcaa's, creatine, glutamine etc
Food timing has NOTHING to do with growth hormone pulses. You can eat whenever you want and the growth hormone will act the same. Because it is injected and not natural release you do not need to worry about blunting gh pulses
AnonI think I remember reading the rules of eating a little differently. Correct me if I'm wrong because the issue here is u come across so much info and sometimes the info u read contradicts other things you've read.
You can eat protein/shake with gh dose as long as its not high in carbs. So if your drinking a protein shake in the morning and takin a 4iu dose of gh ur fine and it shouldn't affect anything.
If you eat a meal which includes a lot of carbs. Like dinner.... You should wait 1-1.5 hours before u take ur dose of gh.
However, if u chose to dose first before eating u can take ur gh and then you can eat whatever u want in regards to ur meal about 10-20 minutes after ur dose. I said 10-20 because I've read both numbers posted individually.
Is this correct for those that are well versed. A lot of my info comes from many other posts and articles. The Internet is a great source for us but sometimes bro science goes viral and takes over the truth...
HGH without slin is a waste of money huh? I am going to call out bullshit on that statement bro. It is working quite well on many of us. Our IGF numbers are real and the vast majority of us using GH are not using slin. I agree it is likely even better with slin, but to say it is a waste is purely your opinion.
Let me rephrase waste.
HGH does not show it's true results unless a significant amount of insulin is present. Yes it is beneficial and helpful but can be so much more.
For simple anti aging benefits yes insulin is unnecessary. But anti aging is 1-3ius. Anything more than 4iu and the hgh really needs the insulin to do it's thing. We are not talking about 2ius here
Ok, I can live with that. We are good..
Cool, I do not want to give off the wrong perception. For most purposes hgh alone is excellent.
AnonThanks for the info and the other comments u made as well....
I'm not ready for insulin so ill stick with splitting my dose for now.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkGood choice. Insulin is very advanced, but so is spending $1000 a month on hgh. But good choice, don't fuck with insulin if you aren't completely devoted to it. it can and will mess you up if not taken seriously.
as for you question, without slin then yes I would split up the doses to get maximum effect
AnonThanks!
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkI don't recall seeing this in the study.
I have also seen a few other studies with doses up to .1mg\kg (approx 30iu for me) which showed marked increase in IGF-1 over .05, and .01 doses. I've posted these charts before.
It means the amount of IGF the liver releases is the same at 4iu as it is at 5 or 6iu. WITHOUT INSULIN
With insulin you could shoot 20iu at once and your liver will produce an amount 20ius should produce.
Moral of the story, HGH without insulin is like running a steroid cycle with no test. NOT WORTH IT.
So where is the evidence "studies" proving your theory?
When I get some time I'd be happy to dig them up for you. Its not a theory or secret. Everyone knows hgh and insulin works better than hgh alone. But I will provide evidence.
I have just never seen a study myself on the benefits of Insulin with GH.
AnonSo then perhaps would it be better for me to take all 6ius before bed?
What do you think about splitting the dose like I planned?
What do you think is better? Would I get higher IGF-1 if I dosed the entire 6ius prior to bed?
IGF will be higher if you have high insulin levels reguardless of dose or timing of dose.
but you do NOT want to inject insulin before bed. lol