posted Fri, 03/08/2013 - 03:49
7002
+ 13 Please stop giving cycle advice to kids
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Title sums it up plain and simple. Please stop dishing out cycle advice to 20 year olds, it's irresponsible.
Yes I know often they won't listen and donut anyway, but that doesn't mean that we, as a tight knit responsible community need to rubber stamp it.
We like to be consistent, no point anyone telling an op too young then someone else dives in with a proposed cycle. Read through the post properly. It's much more likely to be taken on board by the op if EVERYONE talks the same language.
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I agree! Even though they will end up choosing what they will or look elsewhere for their info it does not mean that we here have to provide the info. Too many of these generation kids want to see results now and immediately. Learning how to properly diet and train will give you a solid foundation. In my teens once I learned how to train and diet I would put on size nicely. You want to take advantage of that part of your life where you can add muscle and not effect your health.
AnonMuch agreed..... i like to see 25 and up myself
Don't lie, you know you like them barely legal. Day after they turn 18, bam you're all over them.
In all seriousness, if I had waited until I was 25+ years old to cycle, I likely wouldn't be TRT right now and wouldn't have went through all the hormonal issues in my mid 20's. A couple of those years were pretty rough for me as well as my family. I'm lucky to be here today with my beautiful wife and children because I tried my best to ruin all that. These "kids" just don't understand what AAS can do to them mentally if theyre unprepared or immature.
Same for me. I waited until 26 and built a solid base naturally for 10 years before I ran gear.
Whoever negged it wasn't able to take karma so fuck em. Less than 50 points
Yeah i checked it too bro... was ready to tear someones karma apart if it had been a legit downvote.
X2+1 Brother! This should be an automatic banned IMO.
can we show them where to buy it but not how to use it safely? i understand your point but it seems hypocritical.
We do teach them how to use it but they dont choose to listen and just go ahead and do thier own thing anyway, thats the point... you stick around and try to talk sense to some of these young men and when they blow it back in your face feel the frustration our vets have to handle on a daily basis,so easy to point out weakness without trying to remedy the problem yourself.. try it and see if they blow your mind within a week
AnonI would like to see you post more, if you have the time. The link you posted in another thread about anabolic and catabolic states was news to me.
Doesn't that apply to lots of age restricted retail products?
I don't show anyone where to buy steroids, nor am I allowed to by the forum rules.
roughneck12Who ever negatived this tread is one given cycle advice to kid's.
This dude came in here and said a mouth full ,with few words.
I'm no roll model , I see it all the time in SI treads. Advice being handed out.
First thing I do is go check stats, and the one who just got cycle advice , dose not even have stat's. How can you give a guy advice if you don't have stats on him. No stat's, no advice.
+1 brother and thanks for being a great guy always willing to help.
shirlsguyI agree that encouraging a person so young is irresponsible; but people like me, in their 40's can be just as foolish. I understand the mind of a 20-year old, I am clearly in my mid-life crisis and I'm reaching for every straw to have some of my younger years back.
The problem for a 20-year old is that they just don't have the experience. For those of who were foster children, joined the military even before being an adult, even saw the inside of a jail cell as a teen... we thought/think we know it all... that we have the experience.
No matter how much I consider that 'information' in invaluable, I have to agree, SDM, it is not always best shared out too freely. I +1 this for the content whether I agree totally or not, it has principal and that is what too many of society are missing today.
+1 ain't this the truth
Why would someone thumb down this??? Just cause u dont agree with a post doesnt give you the right to neg a post.
AnonIt's getting to the point you don't want to comment because instead of getting karma you get dinged...
Getting neg for doing the right and good thing well worth it brother. Plus those that are here who contribute positively will call bullshit and those who don't, well they don't amount to much anyways.
yep
i think to avoid a lot of this, it should be protocol to ask stats before any advice is dispensed. i mean any
roughneck12(Brother it is protocol)
What a joke of a thread. Yeah, let's just let them learn on their own. They're gonna do it anyway, so why not help them out? It's their own choice to do steroids, and if they ask a question that I know the answer to, I will give it. The only thing irresponsible is withholding helpful information because you disagree with another adult's choice to do with their body.
AnonYour veiw is fucked.... and goes against everything we are trying to do
You better keep a tight grip on what you spit out around here... i will be watching you real close
First I will say there is a good and bad way to have an open debate. Alliance labs below did this with facts and respect. When you open up with ,"What a joke of a thread" you speak as if you know all, and you don't that is an opinion. And how could it be a joke if people on both sides bring knowledge that can educate and improve everybody's understanding.
You say "The only thing irresponsible is withholding helpful information because you disagree with another adult's choice to do with their body."
Well if they are an adult and mature enough to make such a decision for themselves without heeding the warnings from others who have been there. Then they should also be mature enough to do their own research extensively without the aide of others holding their hand through it. Just because they are going to do it anyways it doesn't mean I want to play a part in their possible stupidity. Because when and if shit goes bad make sure you are right there taking the credit for being involved. So for conscience sake that is why many here won't do it.
roughneck12You always on point brother.
So very true brother. Good articulate debate with alliance labs, over pm it turns out we have similar scientific backgrounds. Never have a problem with someone disagreeing, especially when it's a difficult subject to call.
Starting off with "what a joke of a thread" had one effect on me. I didn't read the test of the post ;)
Everyone's entitled to an opinion lol!
I know right... nothing worse than insults when someone lacks facts:)
not on this site you wont.
ive always followed this protocol, and when im in there I always comment on it when I see it.
I do not mind cycle advice to kids what I mind is people saying its ok for a kid to cycle. The cycles are laid out over and over on this forum but to tell a kid that it is ok to cycle just pisses me off. Also kids that have no fucking clue what they are talking about giving advice to anyone. That is bullshit. When A kid wants advice from me I tell them they should wait and then point them in a direction to do some research.
thumbs up on this. I dont get why there in such a rush
to do a cycle.
It is like two schools of thought in parenting. One well my kid is going to do it anyways so I want to be there and guide them so they have a better chance of not getting hurt. The other is well you can do it but when and if it goes bad at least you will know that I was not here bearing witness and giving approval to what I believe is bad move on your part. I am of the second school of thought for this reason whether the science is there or not, if you give a 20 year old advice and back him up when or if shit goes south for them you now have lost all credibility in giving counsel. And the first thing they will say is well I did what so and so told me and why because most not all people in there 20s are cocky, arrogant, and self justifying never taking credit for their own shit without blaming others. If you didn't support their decision they will at least remember their was a person who didn't give a shit about being hated in order to do what was best for them. This has been my experience in life and I have trained and led plenty of men in their early 20s into the ultimate you better make the right decision scenarios.
Someone down voted this post..... you know who you are make it right before i tear a hole in your karma.
I agree with SDM. It is not our place to encourage such usage to the young bucks, and I understand AllianceLabs counter argument about encouraging fat 30-something year olds but not fit 21 year olds as well. This is definitely a paradox, like if I travel back in time and kill my mother, how would I ever have traveled back into time to begin with if I was never born?
Either way, I believe it is best to just educate alternatives if they believe steroids are their only answer.
AnonSent you a FR also.
AnonAlthough I see your intentions are good, I have to disagree.
There's enough information on google to give them an idea of what to do, if they're determined, nobody is going to stop them.
It's more irresponsible to simply ignore them and tell them they're too young, when we can provide the proper information to make sure they're safe, when we know they're going to do it anyway.
The right thing would be to highlight why it's not right for them in a physiological aspect and future aspect, while providing proper information IF they choose to do so, while reminding them why they shouldn't.
How can you tell these 20 year olds they should be on AAS, when most of the guys we look up to were on gear from 16 or so? Lee Priest was juicing from 16. Nick Medici and Cody Lewis are freaks and sponsored by big names, been on gear from their junior years in high school. I don't condone use of AAS in your teens, at all, but I feel 20+ is another story.
Who's more deserving, a 20 year old with a dedicated diet and has been religiously training since 15 years old, 5 days a week (I know plenty) or some 28 year old clown, goes to the gym 2-3 days a week, mainly bullshits with his boys, does some sets in his beater looking in himself in the mirror, talking to girls like it's a club and follows an okay diet?
Age and maturity is subjective. I don't condone teens using AAS, but the 20-22 year old crowd is another story depending on their training history.
Regardless, I don't want to see anybody do it wrong who has their mind made up whether I approve or not. It'd be spiteful to withold knowledge when you can help. It's the same in the medical field. All medical professionals have the responsibility of non-maleficence, "to do no harm." Witholding proper advice, is doing harm. Some jackass asks you, "Hey, these clenbuterol say how many MG of clen do I need for this cycle?" You ignore him because of his age and he's smart enough to know 1,000mcg are in a mg and now he's taking MG doses of clen, you contributed to the harm that happens by deliberately not sharing knowledge.
I agree. Most of the kids google it and many cycle logs appear without any info about how exactly to take each ingredient. At least on this site we get the Cycle Logs and all the Pros/Cons about each one. When I started I did google it,but made my homework for more than 1 year and decide from all the info how to design a basic cycle and started from there. As the personal experiences are learned PLUS all of your experiences posted, we start to do the trial and error methods. WE DO THE MOST WE CAN TO ADVISE to this kids,but at least if they decide to go on,they will have a "SAFER"starting point.
X2
Then let them go onto google, how do you think they found eroids in the first place?
Who said anything about ignoring them? We try to educate why it's not a good idea. If you read a little more before you "disagree", you'd see that. I give up my time to give training advice and diet plans to some of the young 'uns here, I do that to keep them safer. Sometimes it works, sometimes they'll run gear anyway. It has nothiing to do with maturity, and it also has nothing to do with training history. This is about biology. Statistically the earlier you start, the more likely you are to end up on TRT.
I agree with a lot of what you've said, but you're suggesting we start doing stuff we already do and have done long before you were here. I have no problem with you disagreeing, but you're in the minority and taking was is around here a fairly unpopular stance on the subject.
AnonEverybody coming together and being "tightly knit" to prevent that "one guy jumping in and giving cycle advice" would be ignoring the information they're seeking, which is why I said it should be included, with the proper answer and not just disregard what they're trying to learn and just give them the reasons as to why not.
It would be more beneficial if everyone united in telling them to go train naturally and age first and providing them proper answers. Unless they're borderline learning disabled, they can go make another free account and e-mail and this go around they're "26 and training for 10 years", after they see they didn't get their answers for being to young.
I support where your coming from, 100%. I just don't agree with not providing the proper answers, especially when most people who've decided on injecting UGL compounds into their body, aren't likely to be disuaded by their age as a reason.
I'll try and find the journal and abstract on a study by Silva Arslanian. In the control groups, incidence and prevalance of hypogonadism was NOT higher in either age grouping. If I recall, there were four control groups, men over the speculated age '25' (which there is zero clinical research confirming as an optimal age to AAS exposure) and men 18-24. There was a subset of each group, men of that bracket with diagnosed hypogonadism.
Medical journals and research support claims of AAS use being detrimental to users under 18 years of age, but there's next to done about men being in their young 20's vs others.
It comes down to the maturity and responsibility of the user, which is ASSUMED would be greater in in the older user. However, a 40 year old I know who just placed top 3 at the Gold's Classic this past year knows jack shit about proper AAS usage, I can quote him saying "PCT is irrelevant, you can run the nolvadex while on cycle to keep receptors healthy" and then there's a 22 year old who could school most of us on proper AAS usage and the pharmacokinetics aspect of each compound and the human body.
There's also absolutely no clinical proof that 20 year olds who use AAS are more likely to end up on TRT. There's too many variables. Are the 20 year olds less likely to use ancillaries and PCT products, end a cycle in adequate time? Of the guys I know with HPTA problems from AAS, they abused AAS, they didn't use it properly. It's the kid who got jacked for summer and stayed on, was tight on money and said fuck the PCT, started it 13 weeks after his last shot, if at all, etc.
Anyway, that's a whole other debate.
I don't support ANYBODY using AAS under the age of 21, unless they can prove sufficient knowledge and research done on their own and if it's evident they're truly been training and dieting.
Here's an example. Two guys walk up to you, guy #1 and #2;
Guy 1 - 21 Years of Age - Natural, well developed and built. His questions show prior research and base knowledge obtained. He's plateaud and weight gain has come to a crawl even with macro adjustments. It's evident from his build that he's been working out for several years.
Guy 2 - 30 Years of Age - Natural, looks like the average American. Overweight, not any real muscletone. Says he's been going to the gym hard, but his body shows that he hasn't and his diet is suffering.
Without ANY clinical research showing the endocrine system is furthermore developed at 21 than it is at 25 (except for people who've had a notably delayed onset of puberty), you would give steroid advice to whom?
I work in science, in fact I designed drugs as a phd molecular biologist for 14 years, so I'd disagree with you about the likelihood of TRT and ive read plenty of MRC papers that unfortunstely most aren't privvy to. I'm making a sweeping generalisation here, but natural test levels typically get knocked cycle after cycle, hence the comment about earlier TRT. Therefore, the earlier, the more the natural test gets hit in the long term.
In answer to your question about the two guys, neither of them! If they decide to do it off their own back, it's their body and their choice. I won't co-sign it though. Neither of them appear to be ready!
I do understand your point of view, it's a tough situation and there's merit in both arguments. My experience tells me different to yours, and in this game we all have different experiences to draw from.
AnonExactly. Which is why I would hit them with valid arguments AGAINST their usage, but let them know I don't want them getting fucked up more than they're already likely facing and provide them with the adequate info.
I'm also speaking in regards to LEGITIMATE questions. Not guys who are like "ayo manz, i gots blood in ma syringe, can i still use dat shit y0". or like "what dew i use for teh PCTZ!?!?!?"
Look I did my first cycle at 21. if it werent for eroids and the advice i got i would have used tren my first cycle. I started working out at age 16 and really started to watch my diet at age 18. My father helped me a lot with my diet and training. So when most of my generation was doing coke weed and alcohol, i was taking protein shakes and bcaas. At age 21 I hadnt reached my natural potential but when i saw my competition start to get bigger cause they were doing tren n deca, i couldnt hold on. I was going to start with tren but thanks to a lot of guys here that advise me to just test i playyed it smart, if no one would have given me advise i would have done tren n deca as a first cycle. Just my story.
Agree did my first cycle at 30YO and was hard to get good info.. My first cycle was Sust and Deca and no PCT. I was lucky my nutties are still working and wished I had found Eroids at that time to get the most of it and with less hazards. Even without this forums available people will still use Steroids. This is my opinion.
I always wonder why a guy would need to ask for cycle advice anyways. If he has a question about something, just look in the damn forums or google it. Odds are, it's already been asked and answered multiple times. I have questions all the time. I act like I know what I'm doing, but truthfully I learn something new nearly every day. Saw a guy post something like "test prop, tren a, mast p. now build my cycle". That's abot as lazy as it gets. You want me to lift your weights and eat your food for you as well? It's one thing to ask for an opinion, it's another to ask basic questions because you're too lazy to research on your own. Good post brother.
really true. but a lot of the replies on cycles are more "bro-science" then
actual facts. If your going to actually run cycles, you should do research.
I agree about google and all the sources.We can design a Killer cycle, but at the end we all react different towards the Meds. Some work great on some guy while the same product did not work at all. But I feel relieved that we can get immediate help/advice if something goes wrong. Most of us had tried many kinds of Juice and felt side effects....So we can discuss and hear the personal opinions from others, and from this advice we can decide which to take to solve the issues. Many of the info will be trial/error,and there is no right or wrong. We feel better by just knowing we are here to help as much as we can, and waiting for updates about how each of us is doing.
AGREED.
I agree. Most of this kids are easy to detect on the Threads, just by the way they ask the questions. The worst part it's that they feel invincible and want to get big fast. They do not know how dangerous is to play with hormones. Then they start asking questions when they get scared and most of the times is too late. I can't imagine being 20-30 years old and having erection problems or worst case scenario not being able to have kids.
I have mixed feelings about this because I agree the youngsters should be told to wait. On the same note if they're going to do it anyways they should be guided on the safest path possible. I'm 41 and know that I've made choices at that age that I could not have been talked out of but could've been steered in a safer direction. JMO