posted Thu, 12/06/2012 - 07:20
2078
The Norm: Cycling w/ AI's?
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hopefully someone can assist me with this train of thought, but i would 1st like to begin by asking this question: why is it that 1st and 2nd cycle users are running an AI in conjunction with their cycle?
e.g. Girbil is doing his 1st cycle with test only, which i commend him for staying in lines of one compound on his 1st go around, but why is he using an AI with his 1st cycle?
side note: please dont come in here and do blind posting, meaning that you say your peace on 1 thing then jet off never to be seen again.
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Anoni understand your point... i think you're trying to say that a newb has no way to know what his sides will be unless they are exposed to them, but i'd have to disagree with what you're hoping to achieve with this...
bottom line is that estrogen, both high and low, causes a host of sides that should be avoided. it is a lot easier to correct slightly elevated or semi low estrogen versus correcting a side like gyno. even still, why put someone thru this?
let me ask you this: let's say you're prescribed 2 meds. one that has the potential to cause sexual dysfunction and the other to take to prevent the side occurence. if it was recommended that you take the precautionary drug to prevent the side affect of a broke dick, would you still just wait to see if the side came to take it?
personally, i like having a dick that works.. IMHO, recommending someone to "experiment" with their hormone levels to an unneccessary extent is like asking them to go play with a bunch of infectious diseases in hopes that they don't contract one of them. i believe that controll is the best medicine here. my .02
interesting question, and it depends on the circumstances. for your example here you stated has the "potential" to cause sexual dysfunction aka erectile dysfunction [ED], i would absolutely not take the 2nd med unless i saw signs of ED popping up. but in this biased example i have to state that i do not believe in prescription america, and believe that there are meds being prescribed to people who dont need solely based on the fact that you started your example out in...these are potential sides. what does that mean for prescription america when somethings prescribed that isnt necessarily necessary, it means more money for them.
but to refrain from going off on a tangent i would like to loop back around to your other point about avoiding estrogen related gyno. so your saying rather than facing the possibility of experiencing gyno related symptoms, you would much rather take an AI to attempt at balancing estrogen so that gyno is avoidable. well having gyno symptoms doesnt mean the user is going to get gyno if its being treated properly. you can save a cycle if a user is prepared well enough in advance from such side effects becoming extreme.
at the same time not everyone is as susceptible to gyno as maybe yourself would be, therefore following the same protocol you would to prevent the side effects from happening may be trivial. but my point doesnt stop here. i would like to elaborate on the fact that i am under the impression many 1st time users are blindly using AI's with there cycles based on what the next person is doing, or what is working for an experienced user. so if the 1st time user doesnt know much more about the AI than that which i just stated they may be losing out on some benefits by hindering possible gains. who's to say that they may not make a mistake during there cycle by tampering with something they only know as much as their neighbor is sharing with them. what if Girbil decides to increase the dosage of the AI on his own formulated opinion that hes not seeing enough gains and he reasons its due to high estrogen bc thats what he was told it would be.
i think my point has become a little extreme, so in order to conclude this i dont feel that a valid enough point has been made for a 1st time user to justify their use of an AI during their 1st cycle, and due to the lack of knowledge on both the 1st time users own body chemistry and shortsightedness regarding how the AI will effect them personally is leaving me to believe they are prematurely using AI's, and they dont need it.
AnonYou obviously are intelligent given your choices words here... We are all entitled to our opinions. I suppose this is where some of us simply will have to agree to disagree.
i appreciate you exploring this idea with me.
AnonNo doubt brother
The thing I find with the use of an AI is when symptoms arise. I.E. even slightly itchy nips. This happens when estrogen rises much like that of a 10 year old girl going through puberty. Some estrogen is good for your joints, and your energy. But, when nips itch then it is clear that estrogen is getting too high. Docs won't prescribe anything till symptoms arise. Follow the same philosophy and it is great to have an AI on hand during cycle like Aromasin or Arimidex. The standard is usually 3 weeks into cycle. I know guys who have needed to start an AI a week into a cycle, and I know guys who haven't needed an AI.
To anwser the question i think ur asking after reading .....yes it is possible however unlikey to repond well enough to test to need little to no ai but the only way to know is to get bloods done.you either post blood results and ask if the estro level is low perfect or high or make another post askin what the ideal estro level oncycle is and then get bloods and reference that....either way get bloods for estrogen levels done...althought its gonna b hard without a base line estro blood level
these questions i am asking are more of making a point. and that point is no one knows how a newbie is going to respond to a 1st time cycle, especially the newbie. in addition i do not practice the use of an AI during a cycle as my gains are very well without it. my last cycle, which is # 7 or 8 for me (lost count, big whoop i know), i gained 20lbs and that is in my opinion very successful for a 7th or 8th cycle being that your 1st cycle typically makes the best gains.
now i am not saying that AI's are not to be used during a cycle ever being that i understand gyno prevention, reducing bloat, keeping estrogen levels in check, etc etc but that all comes with experience, and that experience isnt derived from others its comes from your bodies own chemistry.
in conclusion a newbie may gain 20 - 25lbs just fine off of their 1st cycle, so why tamper with estrogen when you dont know you need the AI. in my example with Girbil he may be just fine like myself without it, but what if his use of a AI hinders some of those gains. shit hes not going to know for certain either if his gains were hindered at all by the use of AI bc of other factors at play such as reliability of source and diet, so why complicate things even more?
He and a long with anyone else has to run an AI. Testosterone converts to estrogen. and high estrogen is a bad thing. It can stunt gains, cause gyno, and kill energy levels. So yes they do need an AI. AI's help to stop the conversion of test to estrogen through the armotase enzymes (I think I spelled it wrong). Also an AI is not considered a compound, so test e plus adex or aromasin still equals only 1 compound in the first cycle.
when i said compound i was speaking purely in terms of steroids lol, i wasnt commending him for using 1 AI now that just wouldnt make sense, i was commending him for using one steroid.
so i get what you are saying about the estrogen, and ofcourse if your estrogen is going to be so high that it stunts gains, causes gyno, and lethargy then that absolutely makes sense why someone would run an AI alongside their cycle, but how do you or he know that his estrogen is going to be that high?
Anonone thing that is unavoidable w/o and AI is the aromatization of testosterone. the presence of it illicits the basic function of the enzyme; thereby, causing fluctuations in estro levels. considering this brings to the point of control. if he's running test only, estro will rise - unavoidable. if he were running say masteron and proviron along with it, the need for the AI gets smaller, due to their antiestrogen properties. keeping in mind that neither of these are a suitible substitution of an AI - nothing is IMO..
running the AI along with this cycle would be ideal. his body will make better use of the cirulating test when estrogen isn't in the way. plenty of trial and error with results backed by blood work posted in here, my man.
right, so going along the idea of getting blood work done to prove that running an AI is ideal, is this blood work you are speaking of yours?
Anonit is not. i do not need to run my blood work to understand the theory. go check out zewi, cdaddy, and gs's forums and labs, bro. you'll find your answer there. feel free to pick their brains as well.
so the theory worked for you out of experience, trial and error. but what experience does a noobie have on their 1st cycle?
thanks for your input.
AnonX2. bottomline, when running a cycle, IMPO, we should strive to acheive as much hormonal balance as possible. the more test in the system, the greater potential for higher estrogen levels. sure, we can take nolva most of the time to correct any issues arising from elevated levels, but why put yourself thru that? nip it in the bud by controlling estrogen at the conversion point with an AI and avoid the sides all together.
what if Girbil doesnt respond to test at 500mg a week with high estrogen, do you say well its better to be safe than sorry?
also how does a 1st time cycler judge where his/her hormonal balance is?
Anongood questions. to know with certainty would be to run blood work at 4 different intervals. 1) pre-cycle 2) 6 wks into cycle 3) at completion of cycle and 4) at completion of pct. with this data, he has baselines and points of references to make necessary correction.
his rate of aromatization will differ from the next man - we all are unique in respect to physiology to some extent. however, conversion will occur to some extent. education of the sides can help guide tweeks in the dosing schedule. if estro gets too high, increase the dose. if it gets low and he gets sides, he can decrease the dose or frequency of the current one. it is my opinion as well as many others to be safe over sorry.
he or they absolutely should run blood work, and thats the point i am trying to make is that each one of us is "unique" "physiologically," but one cant really know whats going to happen until they test it out first. when i explore this train of thought with the new guys there answers stop at the first question "why are you running an AI?" to which they answer "to keep estro levels in check."
they cant answer "at what levels is your estrogen in check?" which leads me to believe they are running an AI purely on how other peoples bodies have responded to that particular cycle they are running, or they are prematurely using an AI.
AnonBlood work does give difinitive data to compare. Not everyone is able to run blood work, so paying attention for sides (both high and low) can really help here.
it seems like we are all on the same thought process here with little disagreement except on the conclusion, which is should a 1st timer use an AI.
correct me if im wrong on this one but if you live in the States then one shouldnt have a problem with going to their family doctor for blood work, and if that family doctor is restricting blood work then find another one that will, or even explore endocrinologist.
but even if blood work wasnt an option here its just like you said about paying attention to your sides, after researching the subject enough one can understand the signs and sides that are associated with high and/or low estrogen levels, and monitor there own reaction from the level of test they are taking, and from their judge whether it is pertinent to utilize an AI at that time of monitoring and not before.
Without getting labs done to know for sure where his estro is, he should start with a smaller dose of it like adex .25e3d or aromasin 6.25ed. He can judge it by how he feels. He just needs to observe if he has signs on high estro or low estro if taking the AI. He could try and not use it at first but imo I would rather be taking one because at 500mg of test e, there is going to be much much more estrogen than not on a cycle.
i see your point, but what if in the example of Girbil his estrogen levels arent as high on cycle of 500 test a week as say yours, and then by including the use of an AI it drops his estro levels down a bit, wouldnt this have an effect on gains as well?
Yes but it can have a positive effect. Like in dossier example about having no sex drive. If your estrogen is too high you won't grow. On the otherhand you need to remember you have to have some estrogen to grow. Too low estrogen can also stunt gains and hinder the sex drive. I took too much adex at the beginning or my last last cycle and it sucked havin no estrogen. You have to find that point that allows you to feel great and grow.
exactly, "you have to find that point that allows you to...grow." he or they may grow just fine and better than you or dossier without the use of an AI. so a noobie wants to mess with their testosterone thats part 1, why mess with your estrogen when you dont have any clue whats going to happen with the testosterone which has an effect on estrogen?
Anoni remember a time when my sex drive disappeared during a cycle, and i blamed the gear. this was before my eroid debut, of course. i thought, up the dose of test to correct. no effect there; just more oily skin and acne. then i introduced an ai, and it was like getting hit with a truck; fkn sex drive went thru the roof! lol