posted Thu, 09/27/2012 - 12:54
3096
HCG
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My question:
Would it be more beneficial to run HCG during the cycle?
Or include it in with PCT with an anti estrogen?
Was reading on another forum that it is advised to run a dose of 500-1000iu every 3rd day during AAS cycle, and to bump it to 2000iu EOD for 3 weeks during PCT.. The link is right here: http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/156877-hcg-dese...
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i may be missing something when it comes to hcg, but i don't understand why any of us wouldn't run it on cycle, each and every single cycle regardless of how heavy the cycle may or may not be. it's not like it's expensive as shit or hard to obtain, and it seems to me that it's almost like a kicker to recovery. i mean, someone please explain to me why exactly you wouldn't want your boys fully awake and ready to go come pct at the end of each and every cycle? even if it's a 'weak' cycle or we're not prone to atrophy, i don't understand why it isn't a standard precautionary measure. i mean, recovery and keeping gains is the name of the game, for me anyways, and everything i've researched on hcg and its benefits over the last few months is pointing towards hcg = faster recovery. bottom line hcg preps your boys to start pumpin out natty test much quicker right? i read a post where the guy was from another country and was confused because we see hcg as more of a luxury than a necessity, but where he comes from it's the other way around. i feel like wherever that is they've got the right idea. i mean if i'm wrong i'm wrong, but please explain why and we'll all learn together
Well, I've heard going past 500iu can significantly increase estro problems. And quite honestly I'm using test E right now. My nuts are probably shut down, but I don't care. I don't even know if they've gotten smaller because I don't normally check them out to know. If it's going to rebound fine after that's good. Also, HCG Can desensitize your body to Leutenizing hormone, which is a bad thing. I think that's only in larger doses. But the article he mentions suggests 2000iu before pct? idk if I'd do that.
I have 3 x 5000iu vials of hcg sitting in my drawer.
I guess "bottom line" for me and some other people if I've researched correctly, is there are some side effects of HCG uses that might make it worth avoiding if possible.
please note this is my own personal understanding, not concrete facts. I am not gonna run out looking for sources for reference here haha.
i too have read quite a bit on how any dosage over 500 iu's increases aromatase activity significantly, and also that hcg can over time definitly desensitize you to luetenizing hormone, however im only referring to running 250 iu's of hcg twice a week while on cycle, and assuming a long ester is being used, not starting the hcg until the 3rd or 4th week. its definitly still a work in progress and i have a lot more to learn, but i really do believe im on the right track. ive also been reading a lot on this stuff called hcgenerate and am intrigued to say the least. maybe its just me but i definitly do care if im shut down, even though its inevitable to a certain extenet when cycling, and want to recover as fast as possible to KEEP what i gained - so yes, rebounding just fine after is good, why not make it easier for you endocrine system to do so?
smallguySo is this all bunk? Or is it just not a good plan?
HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR
Objective Results Discussion
To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.
Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.
Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.
Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.
PRACTICAL APPLICATION
The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM’s were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex) This protocol is contrary to what is typically recommended in many forums but regardless the protocol was effective in all 19 men. This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM’s were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen’s terms.
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
I now strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear is now what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desireable as I am sure you can appreciate. The last few days I have been relooking at AI's to find one that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.
Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It’s called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. (1)
Personally, I find this to be a very interesting mechanism of action when compared to type-II aromatase inhibitors, which bind competitively to the aromatase enzyme, and eventually unbind, rendering it active again. In the case of Aromasin, this doesn’t happen, and once it does its job on the enzyme, those particular enzymes will no longer function.
Because the enzyme is permanently deactivated there is no estrogen rebound with Aromasin. Estrogen rebound at this critical time during PCT is undesirable so using Arimidex would be inferior. Therefore I believe Aromasin is the AI of choice during PCT.
Reference:
The following is a study done in men with Aromasin that shows significant effect on estrogen and testosterone;
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.
smallguyWow, thanks for all the comments guys. Let me read them and get back to you all.
cdaddy7HOLD up, let me help you bro...First off, anything over 500ius in a single injection, the aromatase activity is increased significantly...You will have enough estro issues to deal with without adding more to the mix...HCG is beneficial if ran on cycle with high doses of gear for a long period, like over 12 weeks is what I say...If you are running test only or weaker compounds that do not shut down hard and fast, then I usually say no HCG recommended UNLESS you have done previous cycles and/or have a history of hypogonadism...That part is knowing your body and its reaction to compounds is how you gauge that...Bloodwork will also let you know the truth after PCT...Now when to start is a person to person basis based on history and experience...Some start 1st or 2nd week and run it thru the cycle; others will start mid-cycle, BUT for sure you will want to stop it 14 days prior to PCT...Now some use it to blast on PCT...I don't like this bc of the aromatase activity and the high estro levels already and Nolva/Clomid works just fine for me, however, I am not everyone else...I would not use it over 2weeks in that PCT or you are asking for estro rebound...Last I want to add that using another site like that is great for research but keep in mind those collosal doses of compounds are geared for bodybuilders...so if you are not one then i suggest that yu stick to the minimum to moderate dose and dial in your diet and you will be just fine...The main way for you to have great cycles is one know your compounds and what they do and introduce them one at a time so you can know how u react and can single out if you have sides just where and which one it is...Stick with the lower doses of compounds bc more is not better...Use ancillaries for on-cycle and PCT for maximum gains and retention...And most of all DO BLOODWORK Pre, During, Post so you always know what's going on on the inside bc JUST bc you feel great and have no symptoms doesnt mean there isn't something going on...
smallguyMakes good sense. Thanks
cdaddy7And i forgot to add the reason I say he can run it until the last test shot is bc i tell them to run their ai all the way thru until the day they start their PCT
Anongood job though posting all that more discriptive and detailed post! +1 for u!
Anonthis is pretty much what I said but longer and more complex! and hcg isnt just for long and heavy cycles its for your nuts point blank and period ! all it does is keep the balls big in time of shrinkag from heavy use or just if your sinsitive and your nuts shrink up easy on gear in general! it is best to stay away from it unless u need it !
cdaddy7You did a fine job yourself...I think Im becoming more like tread...LOL
Anonlol yeah maybe just a bit but thats what makes yall great for these guys so good job
I don't know who ever came up with the idea that it should be in PCT but that's wrong. Its an exogenous hormone. Why would anyone take a hormone during PCT? It defeats the purpose.
Anonyou run it at two shots a week at 250 iu each time, there is no way to say if you dont need it because your balls can be effected by test so you may want to no! listen to yourself and ur nuts not anybody else if they shrink then use hcg to help if thwy dont fuck it
smallguyOk. So pretty much just wait until my balls shrink to add it in? If need be?
Anondo not run on pct it wont allow you to do so propper and yes it keeps balls big so its a bit of a good idea during heavy or long cycles stop 2weeks before pct is a good idea so it gets out of your systm im not going into specific on why if thags the case google and learn brother! all it does is help balls not shrink so its all up to u
smallguySo I wont need it during a 12 week test only cycle?
Anonsorry I took so long if uv ran a test cycle and didnt have any issues with,ur nuts getting smaller then no u dont need but if u did have issues then yes use !
i would not run it during pct, it does not start production of lh and fsh and thats what you want to continue to produce endo test and recover. if actually mimics lh so it is possible that if you are taking it during nolva and clomid you are hindering their effects. if you chose to run it during cycle 250iu/2 x week is sufficient. if you run it as a precaution start it week four and stop it a couple of days before you start your pct. always run ai with it
Yessir 'levelup'...basically HCG is exogenous LH. Think about it like putting exo test and other hormones in your system, they shut ya' down. HCG will hinder your natty LH production because your pituatary gland is going to sense the body has enough LH. Therefore decreasing the desired effect of the clomid in boosting your natty LH production, which will interfere in a successful recovery.
all depends on the cycle bro...what were you thinking of running? cycle history?
smallguy2nd cycle.. Test Cyp for 12 weeks at 500mg. Prop kicker first 4 weeks at 100mg EOD.
anything 12 weeks or under hcg is not necessary during cycle. also got your ai and PCT set up?
smallguyZewi has me doing clomid 100/100/50/50 and nova 40/40/20/20.. My ai during cycle is a-dex, .25mg E3D. Increase to .5 E3D if sides occur.
So, no HCG during this cycle? Nor the pct?
looks like zewis got you all hooked up. first if you continue to get sides .5mg EOD to .5mg ED. second HCG is run during long cycles to keep yourself from getting a harsh shutdown with at 12 weeks with Test E and Test P you shouldnt get. And no not during PCT
smallguyAlright, sounds like a plan. Solid. Thanks!