+ 13 HARD SHUT DOWN
real quickly wanted to address the "hard shut down" term that is used so frequently. I just saw someone advising another that deca is a "hard shutdown". See that quite often and I also see many people who had a horrible experience with deca and say "never again". So I will quickly adress the topic and in fact it will apply to all 19's as to this "hard shut down".
We recently saw a sries of posts related to quality wood being gone following even pct of a cycle with a 19 in the mix. People always think "wow, that was a ard shutdown, not runnig that again". So I'll give my take on it and anyone please feel free to agree or disagree.
I prefer to refer to it as "a different type of shutdown" so as not to confuse. To just call it a hard shutdown might lead one to think there is no recourse other than time and in doing so not even explore the possibility that maybe the shutdown was different than normal and there might be a solution. In one recent scenerio we talked to an individual who had gone through pct following a cycle with deca and even a couple weeks post pct he had poor wood quality. So in talking with him we came up with wha I assumed might help and in just 3 days of caber use the quality had returned. So he may still have some ups and downs, no pun intended, but the pioint is he very quickly began to fix an issue. The point of that was that his shutdown was different than a test shutdown. And there were more aspects of the shutdown given the deca use.
I know many of you think "caber on hand". That may actually be old school thinking because lets think about whats going on. When you use a 19 if you are like me, sex is insane first few weeks lets say on a short such as npp or Ace. If you're like myslef and many others you may begin to experience shroom sensitivity around week 4 and for some that could mean deca D*ck and for others like me that means just can't get off. Well, not unless you go tour de france and ride that bike like a wildman for a solid hr! The hour is fine unless the bike is being peddled as fast as you can peddle the enire hour to make sure you get to the finish line. So by this point in cycle and unattended to the end especially one could say, I'm in a hard shutdown. What is actually going on is yes , you are shutdown but now you have a secondary component effecting the shutdown. Now you have a prolactin stimulation occurring at the pituitary. That by itself can be an issue with sex drive so couple that with a hard shut down as you come off cycle and crash and you can see poor sex quality for weeks.
You think "I'll just rock this pct and soon enougbh as test comes back my drive comes with it. For some yes for other no.
In the grand scale of male hormone prolactin is not hugely significant in raw numbers, however, the change of that small number can still have a mega impact on the sex drive. We're not even fully sure of why and not fully sure or understanding of its total impact but it can be great.. so heres my thought on the issue of "hard shutdown". Prolactin took this minor change during the 19 and that minor change was great enough to destroy the drive. Then given the small significance as it were by compoarision to other hormone the bodies respoces through pos/neg feedback loop were so small to the issue given the small significance of prolactin that it was not prompted to necessarily e
return to "normals" real quick like. Lets say its significance is so small in the grand scheme of things that the body even gads a range in which it deems "normal" and even though you may be in that "range" you are still too high in prol?actin to spur the necessary mechanisms tol bring back the wood in proper.
Think about how even off cycle you have heard of people using caber as a sex drug to lower prolactin even lower than the norm range and create crazy wood and orgasms. Think about how this tiny change helps and then wonder, did I really have a "hard shutdown" or was I simply shutdown in a way I didn't understand?
This is sort of a way of explaining this in terms we can all understand I hope because the science behind it is much more complex than a prolactin issue when we get down to it, but, this is plenty without getting overlycomplicated to kind of understand the issue as to sex drive in the 19 run.
Its this for me, shutdown is shutdown so not only is it healthier IMO to low dose caber through a 19 ride, it is smart and helps the sex drive side effect. Anything we do to prevent sides is healthy if you think about it. We drink a lot of water, we lower salt, we do cardio, we eat right, we run an AI. All of these things to prevnt sides givn sides mean "unhealthy roll" so why would you not prevent the side of prolctin overage? You don't have to be breast feeding kittens to need caber, maybe such as I the effect to prolactin is minimal and ou have never had leaky nips but that does not mean thre was no effect. We can debate shutdown and hard shutdown all you like but I promise, if you low dose caber in your 19"s you will have a cl?eaner run and if all else such as AI and all the above is dialed in, the sex stays good the whole roll. Opinions welcome and my point here maybe is hta deca has a bad rep for many only because those many did it wrong and di not use the necessary protocols to make it good. Its like running dbol and no AI and being often bloated and miserable, why not reduce those sides with the AI and mae the dbol run better and "HEALTHIER"?. Much more to discuss with prolactin but hopefully for this topic we covered the necessary depth of it and its other effects.
Btw...fun little fact that might make you understand prolactin a bit better. Did you know that following an orgasm your body secretes proclactin. So think about after you get off how you lose that sexual drive "to peak condition at least" and lose wood quality. So now imagine you have that overage all the time...BOOM! Check youself bitchezzzz
I SHOULD ADD, CABERGOLINE CAN BE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS ABUSED, USE IT PROPER THE WAY YOU PROPERLY USE ANY DRUG so you can continue to enjoy all the benefits of having a pulse. Sweet huh?
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Caber and Prami are dopamine agonist which increase dopamine reception or binding rates which is what fights the prolactin issues. Tyrosine and a eastern herb Mucuna Pruriens also increases dopamine which probably does so with a lesser effect since its natural. But someone thats sensative to Caber might give it a shot. I know nettle root extract binds to SHBG and frees up testosterone and also is an aromatase inhibitor as well, but you don't see people taking that instead of exemestane. I did use nettle root extract during a cycle and never had to use an AI but I was on a low dose test and oral cycle and may have not had any estro issues in the first place. Hard to tell. Just throwing this out there in case someone might find this useful.
tread-mI like think outside the box, in fact, stay outside the box! Have not used the technique but my eyes are wide open, thanks for the input!
cdaddy7Masters tread, I have truly had some horrible experiences with deca, but yet with Tren nothing...I cannot for the life of me explain it bc the are both 19nor..do i like tren? Love it, but do not love all the nasty sides that go with it...aggression is the least of my worries....LOL...now on the use of caber, I tend to not be in support of it bc if you are putting a compound into your body in which in turns puts more unhealthy stress to the point of death if not correctly posed seems oxymoron to me...everyone is different, but the purpose in my use of gear is to give me a healthy edge in my older years so I can stay more active longer....but if I am putting compounds into my body that have a negative effect on my body and it requires another compound that is harsh itself then I've defeated the whole purpose in which i started...I just stay away from deca all together a I play with Tren very little and if I do It's no longer than 6 weeks, but now there are more compounds that provide a healthier ride and give u the almost same benefits but just take a little longer like using EQ instead of deca, using 1 test Cyp over Tren...I call it making healthy decisions....there is always going to be shut down with the use of AAS or even Prohormones, It's what you use that dictates just how fast it happens based on the affinity of the compound to bind to the androgenic receptor....some use HCG which i condone but I think It's over used compare to actual necessity...I'm thinkn the same with caber as well...prolactin issues take a little longer to build than estro so i feel that a good AI like aromasin can be more than enough protection with reasonable doses being used...I just kinda feel that caber should be on deck like Letro but others will agree....now does it actually improve mood i think so ....but I don't like It's potential for health issues....caber is a drug for advanced users just like Tren....I think the best thing is to find better safer alternatives if possible..I wish there was a paper written on caber and I may need to do so to educate myself more on it and doping...I hope I made sense bc I was just typing as I pondered on it in my head
tread-mAlways love the thoughts coupled with science from you CD. Let me go this direction just to add to our intertwined thoughts and the science we use. First let me compliment you in that you use a lot of science and I'm a science guy to some degree but I'm also a guy who says "lets make some science". I know you are too but if you look to my thoughts be it the recent hgh write for new use protocol and many other areas. I get out of thought in the traditional sense often and think "what if"....quite often in fact.
So in saying so I also have to say I don't always look to the science as far as "safe" or "unsafe" or even "sensible". What I mean by that is just because something has shown to be unsafe I might look to see why or under what use or why it was used for that matter.
I'll explain my thoughts on this because i don't really agree with your thinking on this one point at least but I love debate so know that. Sides are simple and you wormking in medine you know a side is a bi-product of an issue. The issue in this case and many with what we do is unhealthy. So sometimes we can't just think of healthy vs unhealthy. Some of the things we do are unhealthy for a period such as even using tren period. So on olccassion we need to be able to think outside the box and step away from a thought of healthy/unhealthy and think "less unhealthy". In the case of 19's we have sides. We know these sides are saying "something is not healthy here" so often knowing tren is just not healthy we thing to less unhealthy. Such as even just a test run and maybe a simple side is retaining water. In thought we say that may be a side of higher estroegn being cause and effect and then another side being high bp etc. So is using an AI healthy? No not really but it is so much less unhealthy than the. sides we spoke of we do have to categorize the AI as healthy for "our" specific set of circumstances. For me the low dose caber is the same. The question is, can it he dangerous? Yes, very much so but so can any otc you buy if used wrong. We can only advice proper use of anything here and can't "hide" tools we know many will use. I would much rather utilize the tools we have and teach what it is to use proper because I've ran across people running full tab caber daily! Lol waaaay too high of a dose and the oppurtunity to crash bp and a number of other serious health issues is there. Again, I'd lean you to "less unhealthy" being the direction we have to use often because the chocie is bad or not quite as bad. Now, on you own issues with tren for example, I would ask what sort of dose are you talkig about in your own issues? I have ran different protocols as you likely have but I can tell you, as little as 50 eod with ace alojng with a couple other things in your cocktail and some carb manipulation you can have amazing tren effect with nearly no sides at all. Many get caught up in doses to proper but poper for me is "what works with the least sides and the lowest dose". I actually respond differently to tren depending on many things be it time of year, current bf , holding water at all, bp in check etc. I may at certain times be able to ramp ace up in one cycle and the next use it has to hbe kept lower given body condition etc. To start very low and slowly work up to issues then work bacfk down to get back under the sides. I think people get too caught up in mg protocols and in doing so you often don't find what works for you which is all that matters to me.
cdaddy7Absolutely, Master Tread you know I value your input and you are so correct on this and it is hard sometimes for me to think outside the box and enter into broscience. I think there is def a moderation to everything...I think that caber can be used afely and its finding the right dose to make it beneficial not harmful...I see these yung guys come in here a start bragging about smashing 2 grams of gear in their bodies and I am flabbergasted to say the least bc they are under the notion that more is better...I think low dose and acclimation is the way to go and necessary to find one's sweet spot...Just like Tren is a great compound if dosed and used correctly and thats the part that the youngins miss...There is a time and place for compounds and good time to use and a bad time to use...Knowing when and how makes all the difference in the success or failure...I always approach the forums with a conservative fashion...You can see it in my cycles, I call it my governing switch you could say...I post a lower dose and encourage acclimation bc its safer and more effective in cycles than mass doses...Now I understand those aren't BB doses, but this is not a BB site nor am I a BB...Im like you T, I want to find Zen with gear and retain my youthful bliss!!! LOL....After reading this , I agree that Caber can be used for benefit if dosed appropriately and carefully...I have caber on hand bc every once in a while I use Tren, I also keep Letro on hand but I do not use them bc my AIs do the trick...I call them my fire extinguishers and they are in case of emergency only...So I joke and say I keep them next to my fire extinguisher in the house...This changes that theory, but its things like this that Zewi, GS9902, and I discovered a whole new PCT regimen that has proven successful to this point...So I will go with the notion that Caber in a small dose can be beneficial to those on 19nor...Thank you for taking me in depth on this caber debate and opening my eyes on things considered...AS always a pleasure to throw around discussions with each other's views and u learned me something...
tread-mSorry bud, get a little lost in PM's here and there...lol i like the "governing switch". I often even use a similar thought in new trt rolls by where we start low dose to get the hormone balance to begin to occur and heat up the body in a way it would liek to be. Then I slowly come up as the results roll in untill we meet a climax of full blown cycle. Full blown being relative to the individual always. Thats another thing I like to do thinking of your switch, I like the switch to be very personal to the individual and their backgrounf in gear, stats etc. Yes I see the protocols talked about with pct there and have wondered often about bloods on the ideas. I have read many and some ideas with Roberts a time back where he includes the AI in the pct run. very open minded about it for sure.
cdaddy7Zewi is on it presently and will be getting labs done shortly on that PCT and GS I believe just started the PCT as well and will be doing bloodwork as well.....I'm definitely with u on low dose acclimation but also the stats and gear history....definitely wise T....I'm glad we share the same views bc the further I go into research in this venture I finding that more is def not warranted....dose adjusting from low to higher is better on the body and can help the sweet spot be dialed in so much easier bc if u get a dosage that works great and yields positive with min sides and the next time u acclimate and It's not so great and bad sides well It's obvious...the biggest problem u would face is one's willingness to be patient bc the acclimation takes time and most ppl want immediate results and don't think about the "marathon" longevity aspect of this and run the risk of creating health issues bc of using to high of doses bc they failed to research it and saw a bodybuilding post his cycle and thought that was the way to go....so important to research and approach conservatively bc we r the "broscience university" clinical study and thats what we have to go on
tread-mYes and I'll tell ya, this is at the core of my low dose hgh discussions. I have seen myself how much further the oil can go with proper balance and have more trrying the thoughts and one in particluar running low dose hyge at 2 iu's ed with low level oil use (slightly over trt dose) telling me he is getting more out of it than his normal cycles. So yes, my whole point behind the hgh protocol is this that we discuss. Its very hard getting a "few" people to get their thoughts off of "hgh" in its traditional thoughts. So much so I wish we had an identical compound different name so we could have the discussions without our old thoughts coming to mind. I like those such as yourself in that you enjoy mor
E than the big cycle, you enjoy the scienc as I do and IMO we have to have those thoughts and discussions to move forward and to find healthier ways as we go.
cdaddy7Absolutely T, I'm glad we met bc we do share the same passion, values and quest..It's obvious that we can learn a lot together and I look forward to that with great eagerness...Thank you for another enlightening discussion...It was an honor and pleasure as always...take my +1 love but things I learn with u is worth more than that
tread-mYou're the closet thing to my thoughts here brother and thats because you more than use and teach, you are constantly looking to learn! I'm a human experiment btw and have other things on the horizon....somebody gotta do it Nooka! Lol
cdaddy7Im right there with you brother!!!
cdaddy7Well Master T, were we thru with the discussion? LOL......I never saw u again :(
AnonCdaddy/ Tread , While looking around I actually found this link that had been posted by a member here at eroids. I thought it was a good start. In the interest of giving credit , kaos007 was who I found had been kind enough to supply this link in the product review section.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?356499-The-How-To-Use-Caber-Thr...
Yes C as I expressed to you it was the notation that missuse can cause death that makes me think I should read about and get some more advice from experts on this compound before using it.
tread-mI'll tell you the most important part of hat read IMO. The individual went on to adress concerns such as CD's above by contrasting the dose we use for our use and the dose prescribed for some of its actual medicinal usages in medicine. The contrast shows how safe our protocols are. When I say safe I mean that relative to and I mean in in a way by where we use it to be "less unhealthy" as I described in replying to CD above. Sometimes our options are not "healthy vs unhealthy. Sometimes our options are healthy/less unhealthy...this is a topic that I believe the latter applies. Thank you for the very helpful input.
AnonTread , found this and as I said Im going to give it a shot.
See alphabetically to letter P, then 13 tests down, prolactin.
https://www.directlabs.com/OrderTests/tabid/55/language/en-US/Default.aspx
AnonWow that means a lot thank you. And again and always my thanks to you for sharing your years of wisdom and experience. This is really a perfect example of needing advice and wisdom before a guy like me dives in.
I was going to try and look in to a blood test for prolactin. If there is such a thing I think I may get it in a week or two and by then hopefully have enough info to carefully add caber to my arsenal.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.Permalinktread-mdp
Very nice thread tread. I will go along with your theory cause its basically how I ran my last cycle test/npp/mast. I started caber about week 5 and not becasue of any shutdown, just I was a little short fused or moody. Was already taking AI started that week 3 so it wasn't estrogen. I figured I got this caber on hand and take .5 and see what it does. Sure enough mood improved and proformance to LOL. .5 caber 2 x week was all I needed. Added bennefit from caber was I noticed a genearous increase in ball size the next few days after taking it, which is making PCT easy as well. I agree with you on taking AI and caber. You may be having physical or mental sides your not noticing and then never take AI or caber, sometimes its hard to tell if your having side effects. Just like I wouldn't have known my moodiness was prolactin related until I pop the caber and solve the problem. Same for AI this time around I never had any sides water, gyno etc. Just a little lethargic 3rd week in and took AI because I figured estrogen was draging me down. Sure enough I couldn't wait to hit the gym the rest of the cycle. So yeah sometime side are so mild you may not know you have them, why not just cover the bases with AI and caber right off the bat or somewhere during your cycle, couldn't hurt the cycle only enhance it.
tread-mVery very nice "real life" points brother and good for you for the insight!!! Now let me tell you why you pat yourself on the back even more. Sides mean something unhealthy is going on in your body, the lack of sides is healthy. Such as estro up , water up , bp up in the chain reaction. Think about it , some of us will do 75 + cycles in our life so whether its that or 20 you can't live that much time unhealthy or high bp or screwed sex drive or swollen prostate without consequence. Tol make these cycles as side free as possible is to make them healthy.
Good point. But there is also fine line between healthy and unhealthy when adding substances to your body. You don't want to under treat symtoms or over treat symtoms. I try and use little as possible. As you can see from my little experiment I tried to use as little as possible for maxium bennefit. I don't think it would be a good idea to start your cycle with caber, but adding it in after a 4 or 5 weeks in shouldn't be to unhealthy. It really does give your boys a boost and helps going into PCT. I tried to use .5 once a week, but found for me .5 twice a week was the sweet spot.
cdaddy7Which confirms that once again everybody is different...great input HNP +1
QUESTION: Can taking caber ever cause u to become ED?
tread-mThats a great question x. The point I think is this for me, don't abuse it. Very often unfortuanately people come to know its power in the wood dept by initially using it in a 19 run. Then as we as humans do be it this or oxy or whatever, we have to try next level. Then we begin to use outside the "need" and its a short little jump to abuse. I don't know the answer to your question but I do know, I personally have not heard of the issue and suspect with proper use based on "need" one would not have to worry about it. Wish I had more for you but I don't.
thank u bro, caber is my new best friend
UFOTread brother, sent you a PM. Would really appreciate if you got back to me. Thanjks
tread-m8'm sorry bud, I'll get them caught up tonight I suspect and hop on this for you provided I have the answer you need.
Tread man, beautiful post! Very informative and a great simplified explaination of the subject! EVERYONE should read this! Maybe it should be stickied. Or maybe tread should have his own section. Lol
tread-mCan't be a section brother hell everything I do is from the help of you hardcore boyz. Always love your work brother and always make me think as well, good stuff eeeeerday!
Well I mean a section for Tread-m posts only but for all of us to read! The section will be called "Don't tread one me"
tread-mI even have the Don't tread on me flag to prove it N ! Lol
I think a Tread section would be bad ass!
AnonI have been going through some "ups and downs" lately and assumed it was from the deca. Unfortunately dropping the deca is not as much of an option for me as it is a big part of why Im doing this and that part is working.
I dont have caber, dont really have much info on it but will research it more now.
I will say though that I dont know if this is reasonable or not, but every now and again I would take Clomid for a week and that seemed to help. Is that possible ? I have been told clomid while "on" is just a waste of the clomid.
Hey Tread, I hate to ask more of you but I was looking in the pct anti estro areas and couldnt find an educational thread on caber. Is there one Im missing ? Could you be talked in to one if there isnt one ?
Thanks
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkThe girl that i had last night cant thank u enough, beasting post brother, thanks 4 helping me out. I cant beleive i beat this thing. Yesterday i was at a meeting and i got an untimely boner , yo i wasnt even embarrassed, everyone saw it, u think i give a fuck, im proud baby, whoo lets go
nice post... I have found I get hard shutdown from fat chicks? lol. no matter how much they blow me or tickle my ass nothin... My solution, and I have had deca dick while running caber w/ it. Currently I am on deca and as long as I think the chick is smokin attractive i get blue vein throbbers. So I guess what I am saying is as long as I am all oh my god I have to bang that chick no prob for me while on deca, but if I am just tryin to get laid and not that into it u kno jus goin thru the motions that is when I personally have a prob on deca. Not on deca and I can always perform like a stallion no matter if she's fat or ugly or what... My experience those chicks go the extra mile to please someone like me and that's fun too? I am 3/4 crazy tho have dr.'s notes to prove it.
tread-m3/4th is a very conservative number!!! Loool
yeah, that was me lieing, I am all the way, but quit telling people u prick or I'll quit ticklin ur ass w/ a feather, and I kno how much u giggle.
So I'm a weird case Tread. I get the limp noodle from Deca on any dose over 300-350. But I can run the shit out of Tren. I've never been able to make any sense of it. I even run a lower dose of Test on my Tren runs. Deca= Caber for me yet I have no issues on Tren. Any ideas?
This is me as well! A short 6 week run with NPP and no caber put on some gains but killed my sex drive. This was back when
I didn't think I neededto run any AI or anti-prolactins. I had poor quality wood and just didn't feel that desire. While running tren with the same test dose I have absolutely zero issues related to prolactin sides! Nobody has ever been able to explain this to me. I guess some things are meant to stay a mystery. Well I could attempt this again and monitor my bloods extremely closely throughout. That may paint a better picture of what's going on and why I react differently to 2 different 19's. I know the NPP was good because my bloods showed a ridiculously High progesterone (remember I never ran an AI or anti-prolactin then). I know my tren is good because ,well i made it myself.
cdaddy7I am the same way G except I can't run Deca period and issues start almost over night...It's the most F'ed up thing so I don't do Deca period...I blame it all on my crash and burn Deca cycle at 17 and I have never been able to run Deca without issues since, but I have run Tren several times with no issues period...More of that human body adaptation to and rejection of shit, I guess...Best thing for me to do is ask Mr. Owl from the Tootsie Roll Pop commercial and probably stand a chance of getting an answer LMAO
So then since it's sensible to run caber thru a 19cycle....is there a rebound effect end of cycle like adex? Suggested reason to continue low caber thru pct to alleviate woody issues?
tread-mOnce the 19 is clear, which is the reason for the stimilus, I've not heard of rebound effect no. Would be interested to hear if anyone has though. Most people with an issue at the pituitary can clear it up rather fast with cabe which leads me to think its not an issue.
Awesome....thanks! Keeps pct straight n easy.
Excellent post bro. You should seriously write a book.
Anonnice post t guru
Instead of helping 1 D*ck at a time Tread is going after the masses.
tread-mTreadbusters company logo..."Grab some Lumber"
WHO YOU GONNA CALL"...Dickbusters!
tread-mNOW FRANCHISING BABY!!!! LMAO
this is a great read!
cdaddy7Much wisdom as always Master T,..... Love your greatest fan (all homo)lol