posted Sun, 08/19/2012 - 11:14
4118
Advice on PCT?
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I'm about 1/3 way through my first cycle using 40mg/day D-bol and 500mg/week Test E and was wondering if anyone can give me some advice on my PCT? I already have a supply of Nolvadex but was also wondering if I should also buy Clomid and HCG? That being said I was also wondering what would be the best time to start my PCT given the substances I used during my cycle?
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cdaddy7Lol this is some good shit reminds me of old supp thread I use to know Lmao. Looks like supernova found another universe or something... Damn, I was hoping for a showdown...I left him a challenge below
Thanks everyone who has responded, I'll try to follow everything that has been mentioned. There's no need to fight over the internet, just try to help each other out, that's one of the reasons why we're all on this forum anyways, right? Thanks again for the advice.
AnonAlways use one.
Nolva and Clomid are pretty much the same by what I know. HCG can help in the short time but in the end it will just the recover. While on the cycle you need an AI.
While they are both anti estrogen drugs, they are used in conjuction becuase they serve 2 different functions. They are not the same. One helps with gyno and water retension (Nolvadex). The other produces an elevation of follicle stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone levels, which can elevate testosterone production (Clomid). Both are important in PCT.
Supernova283They aren't anti estrogen drugs. They bind to estrogen receptors. Big difference.
AIs are considered antiestrogens.
zewiyou talk a lot for never done a cycle...
Always correcting or think your correcting some one because they used a wrong word. Or it inst some scientific way of explaining it Fucking really..
The point is clomid and nova are very important to PCT so your natural test comes back..
So your testis turn back on..
Real simple
On Cycle use an AI
OF cycle use a Serm
JUST FOR SUPER FUCK
Aromatise Inhibitor--Aromatase inhibitors exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM’s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain.
NOTE:
Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.
SERM:
Clomid, stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that
a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud
luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's
own testosterone production. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however
it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is
a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER)
and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen
from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.
Nolvadex, is very comparable to Clomid, behaves in the same manner in
all tissues, and is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist of the same
type as Clomid. The two molecules are also very similar in structure.
It is not correct that Nolvadex reduces levels of estrogen: rather, it
blocks estrogen from estrogen receptors and, in those tissues where it
is an antagonist, causes the receptor to do nothing.
there you go super fuck.. is that better for you i really don't like you
Supernova283Happy? Not really, you still said that Clomid and Nolvadox are anti estrogens when they aren't. SERMs aren't antiestrogens.
Medically anti-x is inhibiting. SERMs do not inhibit estrogen they merely also bind to estrogen receptors. They do not stop estrogen from binding in any way besides from the fact that they MIGHT already be bound to the receptor.
Also Clomid is not synthetic estrogen. To be estrogen it would have to be a steroid derivative with a 4 ringed cycloalkyl molecule. First benzene then two cyclohexanes then a cyclopentane. Clomid is not a fucking estrogen compound.
I fucking know what Clomid and Nolva do. I know how the aromatase enzyme works. Don't talk down to me when you don't even have a fucking clue what enantiomers and stereoisomers are.
The two molecules are not very similar in structure. They are identical in structure however the chirality of the two molecules differ because of the spins on the carbon due to stereoselectivity on the two molecules.
I don't give two shits if you don't like me. I don't really care for you either.
Your copy and paste bullshit is crap. You get it from sources that don't know what they're fucking talking about and you can easily do a google search to see that all you did was copy and paste your fucking speech.
Don't fucking talk down to me when you have no idea what you're fucking talking about.
cdaddy7Ok smart guy, I'm your huckleberry....You are so smart, then how are they classified in the PDR? Category> Anti-estrogen. That's its medical classification. I guess u will dispute. Nolva and clomid are similar but they travel different neuro pathways to do the same thing. What is your point? To exalt your intelligence or to discredit yourself by making broad statements in which it appears you are not so knowledgeable.
Supernova283You do realize the application is for women correct? Have much higher estrogen ratios than men. Woman taking Clomid and Nolva would severely impact their estrogen binding. They would suffer low estrogen sides much as we would suffer low testosterone sides in a similar situation.
Clomid and Nolva is off label used in men.
And you're my huckleberry? Doubtful. You might be able to get away with calling Nolva an anti-estrogen since it prevents estro rebound albiet that's only in breast tissue receptors which it has a strong affinitive for, but clomid just doesn't display those kinds of characteristics. So unless you're a woman I'd still say Nolva and Clomid really aren't anti-estrogens.
cdaddy7Wrong again bc I work along side a physician that does to help his problematic TRTs . I don't know what ur background is but ur points r nil. With all the proven success in PCT what is ur dispute beside a classification issue. We are here to help others not give a fuckin Harvard lecture over their heads. So champagne supernova, i turn to ask u what ur resolution to this PCT dilemma would be? I'm all ears
Supernova283I have no dispute besides classification. I see people trying to use Nolva on cycle all the time and calling SERMs antiestrogens isn't helping that.
That's all this was about really.
Your physician is off label prescribing. He's allowed to, but that doesn't mean it isn't off label.
Clomid isn't marketed as a PCT agent.
As for his PCT he should just do a regular dose of Clomid and Nolva 2 weeks after his last shot of Test E. If he wants to use HCG during his cycle that's his personal choice. The mimicking effects of HCG will keep his testes from atrophying, but some fear the LH suppression and desensitization.
Don't wanna get in the middle of this and I'm not. But Clomid is also prescribed to men for fertility, or so i have been told by a co-worker who was prescribed Clomid for fertility. Just did a quick search and there were 3,100,000 results on "clomid and fertility in men". Just adding some info.
Supernova283The information is nice, but I meant as a PCT agent.
Well that is what I was referring to, as a PCT agent. PCT therapy gets your shit working properly again. I would think the increase in semen for fertility is a part of increasing the functionality of the testicles which goes hand in hand with increased natural testosterone production.
Supernova283Most people prescribed clomid aren't going to be taking it for PCT.
I'm not really following your logic. The argument was about Clomid being an antiestrogen. I don't doubt it's a logical choice for a SERM. Just that it's not really an antiestrogen.
Calling something an antiestrogen might give the appeal to use on cycle to block estrogen. That's all I'm trying to say.
I never said it wasn't used for PCT.
I don't think most people get prescribed PCT.
I'm not sure what you guys have been back and forth about, with the AI stuff.
I put that info in regarding being prescribed to men, and its usefulness during PCT.
Supernova283Some people get HCG and see doctors for low test levels and there are a few doctors who specialize in PCT.
I retract my off label use in men if it's prescribed as a fertility drug. Might be worth asking for it at your next doctors visit. "I want to have a baby, could you prescribe me some clomid?" Refers you to a ob/gyn or some kind of other fertility specialist. Bam pharma grade clomid which you know is legit.
Supernova283Double post.
Goog God Im gonna have to double bag it when on PCT. I just got my house back.
By the way Dougie Howser wanna be, who am I to believe. You, who read a book or someone like zewi who has practicle application experience? I take the guy who has been there and done that. I can see why alot of the members can't stand you.
Supernova283You can do what you want. I don't care what people think. I give the knowledge that I have. No one is forcing you to take my advice. I could care less, but since you didn't even know to use clomid after your cycle and wanted to use Nolva only I can't see you having a great wealth of information.
Go back and read the post, I understood the use. However after my RESEARCH I wanted to know if I could get away without using it on a light cycle. I did not like some of the possible side effects I read about. Funny that you changed gears after you got proven wrong.
Supernova283I was never proven wrong. Where was I proven wrong?
Even a PDR classifies them as anti-estrogens which I stated before yet you continue to argue. Just for the sake of defending yourself. Really, this is a pointless discussion. I dont care who is wrong or right. The advice I gave the guy for why both were important in pct and that they are not the same still stands. Whether or not either one is an anti-estrogen is really of no importance in this context. So, can we just drop it?
I guessing you get beat up, ALOT!
Supernova283Not really.
not really, is not NO, now is it. Go get laid maybe you wont be so uptight.
Supernova283I've never been in a real fight. I've lost sparring matches and when I was in high school I weighed 70lbs and tried to wrestle 103 and got lateral dropped a few times, but I've never really been beat up.
Also I have a trust fund and I'm not a socially awkward loser. I get laid plenty.
That has no bearing to the fact that when you're wrong I'm going to correct you and then when you copy and paste shit I'm going to call you out.
If you tried to tell anyone who has seen clomid's molecular structure that it was an estrogen and they had any idea estrogen was they would laugh in your face. I don't know how this weak synthetic estrogen got spread around, but it is laughably funny how wrong that is.
It may bind to estrogen receptors, but it is not an estrogen.
And SERMs are as much of an antiestrogen as trenbolone is an antitestosterone. Trenbolone and testosterone bind to the same androgenic receptor which causes agonist and antagonistic characteristics in trenbolone. This doesn't stop testosterone from binding or being formed, it just limits the receptors since some of them are bound to a different substance.
By the way this forum is about helping others. Did your original reply to my post, HELP anybody? or was it just an attempt to try and show the world that you are smart and for your own benefit? Think about it. Congratulations for being smart. Now work on being respected, it goes alot further in life.
Supernova283Do you have any idea how this works? People read information and then parrot it back to their friends and other members of forums.
That's how this works. That's how people learn. That is what all these members call research. It is important to correct people so that the information that is passed along is correct information.
People don't read endocrinology books. They read forum posts. Right or wrong if enough people say it people will believe it to be true.
This is why we have people running nolva as an AI.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/test-e-var-cycle-...
See that? Everyone talked shit to this guy because he didn't do his research and I was the only freaking one who actually helped him get his shit together. Why? Because people seem to thing that saying "RESEARCH!" actually helps them get shit done, but you know what? I've seen enough crap on other forums that is just bat shit insane that I don't want to take the chance that this guy is going to get angry at Eroids and go do his "research" somewhere else. You know places that recommend oral only and complex multi-compound cycles involving trenbolone as a first cycle.
You disagree with my tactics. To which I say couldn't give two shits about your opinion.
My information is comming out of anabolics by William Lewellyn, PDR's and multiple other credible sources. I dont get it from other forums. I am pretty sure all of those sources are more experienced than yourself. My point was that correting me in the way in which you did helped no one. You did it only for your own satisfaction.
Supernova283No correcting you hopefully would have gotten you to stop calling SERMs anti-estrogens. It didn't but it was supposed to help you.
As someone taking steroids why do we take these drugs? To counteract the effects of estrogen on men, correct? Now lets look at the definition of the word anti (and yes I am copying and pasting)prefix meaning “against,” “opposite of,” “antiparticle of,” used in the formation of compound words ( anticline ); used freely in combination with elements of any origin. IM DONE WITH YOU!
Supernova283SERMs aren't taken to counteract the effects of estrogen. If you have estrogen issues you take an AI. Usually letrozole for stronger issues and exemestane and anastrozole as a preventative measure.
SERMs aren't antiparticles or opposite of estrogen.
Clomiphene citrate is an anti-estrogenic drug that is prescribed to women to treat anovulatory infertility (inability to ovulate).
Tamoxifen citrate is a non-steroidal anti-estrogenic drug, used widely in clinical medicine. It is specifically a Selective Estrogen-Receptor Modulator (SERM) of the triphenylethylene family, and possesses both estrogen agonist and antagonist properties.
Supernova283I've seen the structure of Clomid. I've been on this site for over a year I think I know what a SERM is.
zewiblah blah blah.. You no Clomid was made for women correct? and it works different in guys.
Her for super dick that i guess knows everything and we should just stop posting cause the fool is the greatest scientific fucker around..
To understand how clomiphene works, you need to know how the pituitary controls the making of testosterone in the testis. Testosterone is made by Leydig cells in the testis, which I explained in my last post. The pituitary releases a hormone called luteinizing hormone (“LH”) that stimulates the Leydig cells to make testosterone. Testosterone is converted to the female hormone estrogen, (which I also explained in my last post,) and estrogen tells the pituitary to stop making more LH. This kind of negative feedback system is common when it comes to how hormones work. It’s just like a thermostat and heater. As the room gets warmer, the thermostat sends less electricity to the heater. When the room gets colder, the thermostat sends more electricity to the heater.
Clomiphene works by blocking estrogen at the pituitary. The pituitary sees less estrogen, and makes more LH. More LH means that the Leydig cells in the testis make more testosterone.
NOW WHAT IS A SERM????
SERMs are compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal selective estrogen receptor modulator would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).
Still dont like you.. why cause your an ass and you assume you no everything... cause you took some science class in grade school.
Supernova283Maybe you should go back to grade school. It's know, not no.
And I'm pretty sure Organic and Physical chemistry aren't taught in grade school.
But you know you keep going on about SERMs and whatnot. I didn't even really read it. I have a pretty good understanding of these drugs and their effects on the endocrine system and don't need someone who doesn't even literate enough to know the difference between know and no.
I mean not only are you not familiar with stereochemistry and chirality, but I bet you don't know why there's even a nucleophilic citrate anion on the end.
Who are you to lecture me on how clomifene binds to receptors? All your information is parroted which doesn't give you any more experience than me. Cycle experience wouldn't help you explain the drugs effects or the pathways it takes.
By the way if you are going to play english teacher as well, make sure that your own backyard is clean. WTF is this suppose to mean, quote from your respose to zewi, "I have a pretty good understanding of these drugs and their effects on the endocrine system and don't need someone who doesn't even literate enough to know the difference between know and no."
Supernova283There's a difference between typos and making the same literary mistakes over and over again.
I obviously was going to write doesn't even know the difference between know and no, but changed it before I wrote it down and forgot to change the doesn't to isn't.
zewiO no, i said no instead of know. This is not a research paper, my bad superdick.
I'm so glad you took who gives a shit. See super, i understand how things work and how things bind. However, i mena if it was all science then tell me genius of the world of
Organic and Physical chemistry--why do some things work for some people and not the other? why does Arimidex work better on others then Aromisin--i mean why make all these different drugs if they work the same according to you?
o and just for you.. who i hate, the only person i hate on this form.
A large group of unrelated enzymes involved in primary and secondary metabolism utilize a thiol group to form acyl thiol esters. The enzymes form noncovalent interactions with the coenzyme A moiety and utilize the ketonic properties of the thiol ester to facilitate acyl transfer and nucleophilic activation.
IM DONE WITH YOU
Supernova283That's too bad. I enjoy our talks. It shows how little you actually know.
How long is the cycle? if 12 weeks, 1/3 is 4 weeks. Are you done with dbol?
I haven't reached four weeks yet, so I'm still using Dbol.
Play went offline.
You need adex or aromasin now. Dbol converts heavily to estro. Adex is .25 eod . Aromasin is 12.5ed.
Clomid 4Weeks with nolva. Doses listed are daily for that week.
Clomid 100...100..50...50
Nolva 40...40...20...20
Start pct 2 Weeks after last test e shot . Test ends week 12. Week 14 pct
Thanks, will do.
I'm back bro
+1 for covering my back + solid advice
Also, add hCG (optional) this will keep your balls in shape, but only use hCG if you have an AI on hand as it increases the conversion rates to oestrogen
Im drivn post hcg regimin please Play
First purchase is a bra. Answer Play's questions first and fast.