posted Sat, 07/22/2017 - 13:49
3538
+ 1 Hypertrophy
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So.... everyone lifts weights, with great intensity( or atleast they should if able). I was wondering with all the lifters on this forum. Which would allow for more growth. Reps 8-12; sets 3-4, burn outs at end (last two reps per set) or drop sets. Personally I've done all, and have gotten good results. But opinions differ, discussion is valuable.
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It depends for what hypertrophy you are training for....it can me sarcoplasmic hypertrophic or myofibrillar hypertrophy.
For example,when you are training with weights that you can do maximum 5-6 reps...you become stronger but not that big.Basically you increase the size of your myofibrils which they are located inside your fiber. In that case your muscles are very hard and strong
However bodybuilders usually train for sarcoplasmic hypertophy. They follow the 12+ rep regemen, and their muscles look big but not very hard. the reason is that the cell adapts to the stress and build resistance. In that case the whole stress of lifting goes to your fiber membrane instead of your myofibrils. However it doesnt mean that you can build good strenght training with 12 reps+.....experience bodybuilders and people who train natural notice a plateu on strenght after certain years. Also the 20 % of this muscle is water and other chemical fluids
The difference between a strength athlete's build and a bodybuilder's build mostly comes down to selection bias (those genetically suited for strength tend towards strength training, those genetically suited to build muscle tend towards volume training, etc). The rep range hypothesis has been debunked
Effects of different volume-equated resistance training loading strategies on muscular adaptations in well-trained men. Schoenfeld BJ, Ratamess NA, Peterson MD, Contreras B, Tiryaki-Sonmez G, Alvar BA. J Strength Cond Res. 2014 Apr 7.
Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men. Cameron J. Mitchell, Tyler A. Churchward-Venne, Daniel W. D. West, Nicholas A. Burd, Leigh Breen, Steven K. Baker, Stuart M. Phillips. Journal of Applied PhysiologyJul 2012,113(1)71-77;DOI: 10.1152/japplphysiol.00307.2012
I understand what you are try to say..but I think you misunderstood my post. Rep range always go with load. When i said 3-6 reps for focusing on strength the intensity of load should be at least 80%. For example is someone lifts 45kg and performs a set with 36 kg then the intensity of load would be express as 80% of 1RM. Therefore it is impossible to do a set with 15 reps on 80% load. In essence, you will choose a weight that you will be able to make 15 reps...thats around 50% load. Typically repetition ranges clasified as heavy ( 1- to 5RM) medium ( 6 to 12RM ) and light ( 15RM+). Briefly the higher the load the stronger you will be.
Maximal hypertrophy is achieved through the use of medium load repetition range, a claim that has been verified by several studies.
If you interesting to read just google this: The Influence of Frequency, Intensity, Volume and Mode of Strength Training on Whole Muscle Cross-Sectional Area in Humans from Mathias Wernbom,1 Jesper Augustsson1,2 and Roland Thome.
Heavy loading is generally believed to promote neural adapations and to have less effects on hypertrophy ( American College of Sports Medicine position stand. Progression models in resistance training for healthy adults)
More over there are thousands of studies contribute to hypertrophy. I am making my dissertation on hypertrophy. I can post 1000 studies in here.
The truth is that: to understand completely the different variables leading to strength and hypertrophy you need to examine volume, frequency,load,exercise selection,type of muscle action, res interval length,repetition duration,exercise order,range of motion and intensity of effort. do you know how many studies you need to read to verify this shit. Sometimes is not about studies sir,,,is about logic....and evidence show that increased load, maximise strength. So in summary i am suggesting that to increase your strenght you need to increase your load which comes with low reps, as mentioned
Just a couple of observations
Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong here! It is all relevant
When you say: "is about logic" - A slightly different mindset is needed as the logic of the body itself is efficiency. Bodybuilding is about inefficiency, they are in fact in direct opposition and counter intuitive. The reverse is true for the common high weight low rep or 1rm approach to strength training (move weight from a to b etc. as efficiently as possible)
Although on paper, calculations based on 1RM are logical, I call bullshido on it as an approach to calculating rep ranges or load for any approach. Simply because it is fluid, and in any periodised program for any agenda, you would need to know the then baseline of 1rm - That just isn't feasible in any scenario as the measurement itself will detract from the following effort. Further, 1rm decreases in intervals throughout a given workout. The implications for injury/health/wellbeing are extremely well documented at this stage.
It is very very easy to increase strength via progression of ANY weight. E.g. dumbell benchpress this week 50kg dumbells 2sets x12 reps, 1x 11, 1x10, 1 to failure
Next week, 50kgs 3x12, 1x9. 1 to failure
Next week, 50kgs 3x12, 1x10, 1x8
Next week, 50kgs 3x12, 1x11, 1x 8
Next week, 50kgs 4x12, 1x10
Next week, 50kgs 5x 12
Next week, step up into bigger weight and continue
Very easy to acomplish, less risk, and as you can see it is an approach that is on paper arguably the opposite of what you prescribe; increase strength without increasing load and leveraging higher reps. Furthermore, it is sticking firmly within the hypertrophy range - best of both worlds maybe???
That's not to suggest you are wrong, not at all. Everyone is right, it all works, just like every diet out there!
You might be happy with the 1RM approach, whereas I learned the hard way via 3 rotator tears that there is a price to pay and arguably a better approach to increasing strength, at least for me!
Normally strongmans and powerlifters train with low reps-high load with 2-3 min interval rest. the injury part makes sense but you need to consider the fastest way to achieve your goal. The approach you layout is good, actually I am training like this my self but it will take you years to reach high strength or at least see big difference on your strength. Strength increases with higher load and this is just a fact. Also injury preversion is another topic. There are ways to avoid injuries and make your tendons stronger. Rotator cuff injury is probably the most common injury in bodybuilding.every experience lifter had a big or minor injury on this side of the body.The reason is because this tenton does not grow much, while your pecs,chest,shoulders muscles grow t due to the stress you put in the gym. This quy stays the same, the bigger the muscles the grater the risk in this area. 3-5 min rotator cuff exercises at the beginning every workout is a must. Also some people's tentons are very strong and can support this style of training with the right rest and rehabilitation methods. Some others, have not got so much strong tentons for powerlifting because they keep getting injured when they increase their load too much. I mean it depends on the individuals genetics
you need to consider the fastest way to achieve your goal
NoT aure what you mean.if you're talking about power, the goal is actually about moving x weight from a to be as efficiently as possible. Hypertrophy however is spurred by in efficiency done optimally.
It doesnt take years to reach high strength. Takes weeks, I do it all the time. 4x4 5x5 5x12.... numbers intensity volume rest etc. All tools of the trade. It's also subjective!
But yes strength does increase with higher load of course. I already said it does but what I also said was it ALSO increases in other less risky ways! Also fact.
Re: rotator... nope nope nope. The reason is not exclusively because of tendons not growing. It's because of people internally rotating their shoulders and not having scapular stability. Simple.
Genetics?!.... bullshit. It's about risk vs rewaRd, form and informed periodised training practices
Solid +
x 2
My guess is he's looking for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy... (solid response)
Although I now see a comment below that OP says that "strength gains are paramount"
Beleive it or not 90 percent on this forum training to look big and not to get stronger. Getting stronger means different style of training and different diet. people I know that train for strength go pyramid and do heavy movements. They don't do isolation work. Bench press,deadlifts,squats etc are their favorite. A quy in my previous gym was training like that.... and I have a general idea.However I don't have enough knowledge to give in strength training. I've been training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for years. Basically I try to keep a balance...but do not expect to be a strength freak and a big muscle freak. It doesnt happen to a lot of people
Also with isolation, imbalances start to present themselves. With deads and squats being an overall recruitment of fibers the underlying inbalances will have a harder time showing themselves.
It's in the eye if the beholder, I could care less about looks. Strength is where it is at, those multi joint movements require so much more fiber tension. The recruitment of fibers are based solely on load. That's why in overall strength, complex movements are king.
I have been doing the 10-12 reps 4 sets light weight ever since my ruptured bicep it has been working I've made great gains in the 2yrs since.
I honestly don't think that I will ever be able to lift heavy like I used to atleast with upper body exercises.
I do lift heavier with legs but I use a hex bar which helps me with deadlifts.
Damn bro, you ruptured your bicep. Was it at a insertion point?
rep ranges are myth. It comes down to total weekly volume performed.
I think for somebody starting out they're essential. It helps with an organized training regimen. As we progress in strength, that's when we throw the book out. And we start to understand TUT and how it benefits the muscle.
I lift purely for strength now in my golden years. My reps are pyramids and by the time I am at the end I have added enough weight so the last 4 reps are brutal. I start with 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4. Each time I add enough weight so the last rep is brutal. Its not a recipe to gain size but it certainly gets you strong as fuck. Size weeks I use 15 12 10 8 8 with less weight and only rest 25 seconds between sets.
Do you hit pause reps or continuous?
No pause, burst the upward and slow negatives,
Good call
Yea, pyramids are brutal. I always mix it up about every 10 weeks or soo... depending on how my body is reacting to the training. Honestly, all I care about is strength. Strength to me is paramount.
What kind of strength are you looking for? Each type of strength requires different variations of training... you wanna be strong like Dmitry Klokov? You wanna be strong like Ronnie Coleman? You wanna be strong like Chris Sharma? You wanna be strong like Matt Hughes/Dan Henderson?
Each of those athletes apply their strength differently...
I initially thought you were talking about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy = which is bodybuilding training... which doesn't necessarily mean that you need to moving the type of weight that a powerlifter would be (myofibrillar hypertrophy)...
I've done all regimens, honestly any strength promotion that I get is solid. I always mix it up personally. Always have and always will. But a couple years ago myofibibrillar training was what I was into for powerlfting.
To expand, there are different types of "strength" = agile strength, explosive strength, relative strength, strength endurance, maximum strength, speed strength...depending upon the "strength" you're attempting to achieve, you need to train in that manner...
The key to any of it... is periodization (as someone already mentioned)... you can't go 100% every day. I heard a podcast of a World Class Gymnastics coach (trains gymnasts for the olympics) explaining that he trains his athletes to peak 1 time per year... every thing in between is building up to that 1 event. He goes on further saying that only his elite athletes he can get to peak 2 times per year. Food for thought.
All. Periodized. Hypertrophy rep range is a myth. Progression, progression, progression.
I just go by feeling these days. I believe when you allow yourself to hit reps for weight you hit plateaus. But if it feels good for that week I always hit increments of 5 lbs. for that next ect... always building strength.
Progression doesn't necessarily mean adding weight. You're also building strength when adding reps, decreasing rest time, adding sets, increasing TUT, adding accommodating resistance, adding new exercises. Adding weight is one of many ways to improve performance and grow.
I agree it doesn't, but I feel if I can do solid sets then I need to go up in weight. But I also like to add chains and resistance bands in the mix. Paused reps are always a plus in my book.
Yes!!!!!!!!!!
I drop to 1 plate per side on close grip bench with thick bands to maintain tension
murder
progression itself is just another very important tool,
muscles dont know weight, they know what is tearing them!