+ 2 Someone please tell me why?!?!
Time and time again it never fails with people wanting to start cycles when they are 25%+ bf. AAS aren't miracle drugs. You need a low bf% to run them or else you're just wasting time, money and most likely will get moobs (man titts) due to high estrogen. I thought I was 20% but likely got checked at the doctor and I'm 14%. I like being between 10%-15% at most. Diet is everything. Before you start planning your cycle, get your diet under control. Don't be one of those guys. You will thank me later. Too many people rely on AAS to lose weight, when all it does is make you fat and sloppy. If you need help, add me or message me. There are also A LOT of very educated vets on here. Use this site to your advantage and don't be "one of those guys." Everyone have a safe and fun 4th of July. Thanks to all of you currently serving the military and vers who served.
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im with Tony, there is no reason to let yourself get too fat in the offseason. i have been fat before and i dont prefer it. these days i see no reason to get above 12-14% body fat in the off season. as your bodyfat gets higher and higher your body becomes less effective at partitioning nutrients to muscle and more readily shuttles them into fat stores, your SBGH levels can become unfavorable, estrogen side effects get worse, not to mention just from a health stand point its not healthy to be walking around at 20%+ body fat.
obviously things are different for power lifters, but all of the same negative side effects mentioned above will still effect them as well. there are some powerlifters, like Dan Green who keep very tight, respectable physiques and still manage to push big numbers.
I never get over 20% bf in my life. I pull back the reigns if i get too dumb. Lately I've been busy with work so cycling, training and my diet have been taking a back seat. Fuck it man I don't really care what people do to themselves anymore. They're going to do it anyways. Natural selection.
Bingo! If a grown man is making a decision he knows is stupid but decides to bury his head in the sand, F it. Then there's the kids who will only listen to what they want to hear... Not much you can do.
LoL, I hear you bro. It's just annoying when you see these people on here. You try to teach them and they mess it up still. If you can't do it right, stay away from AAS lol I just broke my left foot on a fire. I'm still busting my ass to stay somewhat in the shape that I can without putting any weight on my foot. Have a great 4 of July weekend bro!
I was 30% BF when my endo put me on trt. You should build a base before cycling I agree but if someone has been in the gym truly working hard or at least training several days a week then who are we to judge? You can't sit here and say when you started you were below 15% and a lot of people here also started cycling over 20%. Shit look at the self pics and see some people are cycling for years and fkn still look like they either don't train or have a problem putting down the jelly donuts. I'm not advocating it but if you are around 20% you should be ok with a good AI but over that will require frequent blood work to make sure the E2 isn't rising too fast.
I'm having a problem with my friend right now who's easily around 25 percent bf and is asking me about a tren only cycle and he has borderline high cholesterol. I'm trying to tell him just to do a recomp in training and diet and he will look better than ever. People don't realize the higher BF you are the more estro related sides too, this ass has never pctd correctly either, I also believe that higher fat gain is inevitable while cycling that high of be. I'm with you brother
That's not good bro, I agree with you also. He definitely needs to diet hard and do some cardio. Those both alone should get him where he needs to be. 25% is way too high, his sides will be out of control.
I still firmly believe that you should wait to do a CYCLE (over trt dose a week) but to say side effects will be out of control I need to know what side effects. I'm not coming at you for no reason; I always like to see proof when people say things instead of just parroting what they hear. Here are some quick pages that show no bad side effects of using AAS when over 20% bodyfat. Remember though, these are tests done using replacement therapy dosing that proved and showed fat loss but it was also used during a diet and training regimen.
http://www.agelessforever.net/anti-aging-news-blog/testosterone-and-fat-...
http://www.mensfitness.com/weight-loss/burn-fat-fast/can-testosterone-he...
I saved the best one for last, in this study, it showed men who were overweight actually had less estradiol in them then previously suggested so adding a cycle for these "high bf" men would not cause massive sides since their estradiol was low to begin with.
http://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/management-of-estradiol-in-men-what-d...
Higher blood levels of testosterone decreased the percentage of body fat (P = 0.001), intra abdominal fat area (P = 0.021), and subcutaneous fat area (P = 0.029), and increased sexual desire (P = 0.045) and erectile function (P = 0.032).
Low blood level of estradiol was associated with significant increases in the percentage of body fat (P<0.001), subcutaneous fat area (P<0.001), and intra abdominal fat area (P = 0.002), and relative less improvement in sexual desire (P<0.001) and erectile function (P = 0.022). These findings provide additional evidence of an independent effect of estradiol on these variables.
"Our finding that estrogens have a fundamental role in the regulation of body fat and sexual function, coupled with evidence from prior studies of the crucial role of estrogen in bone metabolism, indicates that estrogen deficiency is largely responsible for some of the key consequences of male hypogonadism and suggests that measuring estradiol might be helpful in assessing the risk of sexual dysfunction, bone loss, or fat accumulation in men with hypogonadism. For example, in men with serum testosterone levels of 200 to 400 ng per deciliter, sexual desire scores decreased by 13% if estradiol levels were 10 pg per milliliter or more and by 31% if estradiol levels were below 10 pg per milliliter. "
Reference:
Gonadal Steroids and Body Composition, Strength, and Sexual Function in Men
N Engl J Med 2013;369:1011-22.
We are on this forum to educate the masses in our experience and research we have done on this lifestyle. Of course it is not a good idea to hop on a 500mg a week cycle when you are overweight but if we schooled them on using a small cycle dose of 250 wa week to start they could be on their way to obtaining their goals. When we shut them down and say "umm you are too fat hit the weights not the donuts" all we do is force them into a corner and they do whatever they want and increase their problems. THEN we have new posts from these same guys asking for help after the fact. Natural selection applies to those who of course think a tren cycle works and get fucked yes but the desperate few who follow the low dose bloodwork side can be successful in reaching their goals.
Good post Mack.
I'm sorry to say there's a lot of bullshit talked on this site about BF, often by people who have a BF% higher than they say / think.
Let me give you an example. I've just competed in a decent level strong man qualifier. My BF is the highest it's been in probably five years at around 14%, yet I was the leanest guy in the field by some way. You think those guys aren't on gear? You think a guy that's been to the uk strongest man finals multiple times doesn't know what he's doing?
Some of you guys preaching not running gear above 15% are running gear when your BF is higher than that figure. And there are plenty of others here now and in the past who are the same. Maybe you don't realise, maybe you do. Either way there's no set mark here, it's not that simple. There's different sports involved, different goals, different physique requirements. Telling a 200lb 5-10 guy into BB'ing at 25% BF not to run gear isn't the same game as a 250lb powelifter of the same height and BF. One is solid underneath, one is a skeleton.
It's not black and white. One big grey area largely only looked at through blinkered vision. Case by case basis.
I just think lately people fall into the mob mentality and then paint themselves into a corner. its about education and always will be. There are a lot of guys here that started way above 20% and we still see it when they post pictures asking us what bodyfat percent they are and they clearly are way over 18%. I honestly believe even the folks here who think they are under 16% are not taking the measurements properly. A cycle of 250 a week or a tiny bit more should help some of these guys reach their goals and do it safely, then they can jump on the 500 a week train. This even made me rethink the whole starting doses everyone preaches of 500; I think now it should be even less for a starter. Remember back in the day when 250 a week was the standard and those guys (Franco, Arnold, Zane) were powerhouses in the sport? I think it wasnt until lately that people think you have to do more to get results but then again people are people and more is always better.
To me lower bf aka under 17 or soo proves the op knows how to eat correctly to get to his goals. And then we will be able to see a good amount of muscle that he carries. An that will be the determination if he's indeed ready to cycle.
If we turn a blind eye to bf we will lose the above. An then we will have a bunch of sloppy fucks who claim power lifter , but in reality are not doing it right in the kitchen and or the gym and haven't put the time in to understanding either. But they know if they claim power lifter many will turn a blind eye.
What many fail to realize is many power lifters today are fairly lean compared to the older ones. An lift much more than the older ones also. Look at Dan green, Stan efferding, the lilliebridge family etc etc. All had absolutely most of the year (at least their top ones) and they all hold world records.
So all the talk about having to have bf over 20 is absolute bullshit. That is guys who want to eat like shit and claim powerlifting to justify their shity physique. An their lifts are anything to be talked about either.
Now all powerlifters differ but you can pick a powerlifter out of a crowd also because he's carrying muscle also, not just some fat shit. A vast majority of guys I come across who claim powerlifters are just people with shity eating habits who want to justify it. Their lifts suck and have no business having the word powerlifting and their numbers in the same sentence.
TronThe only exception I would say is maybe if your a powerlifter..or some guys just want to use aas to get really big and powerful regardless of bodyfat..but I'm with you on what you're saying if someone is doing it to look good...water retention with high bodyfat makes a guy look all sloppy and shit lol +2
Somebody call me
I completely agree with both you and murph, some people just say f it and do it anyways. The just irritates me when people want to stay lean and add muscle. Yes, you're going to gain a little bit of fat, when bulking, you just dot want to end up with water head and body lol people's estro cracks me up. They look like a balloon or the Michelin man LMAO
TronThe ole "moonface" look lol
bigmurphI had to cut 50 lb before I started my cycle.
You should in my opinion be no higher than 15% bf I was 16 so I cheated a little but test doesn't cut weight diet and exercise does. So unless you want to be fat with some muscle hidden underneath also bloated by water he is right cut your bf and weight before.
If your idea of 15% held true, we would lose more then half the people on this site. Are you telling everyone you were 16% before you started cycling? What is your percentage now? You better damn well be 10-12% from what you are preaching. Test does cut weight with a proper training and diet regimen. If it didn't why bother using it? Test helps build muscle which helps lose fat.
bigmurph214 13% yes I did cut down to 200lbs and 16% as stated above before I started my cycle.
You go around telling people test cuts fat you're going to have people at 30% bf weighing god knows what running gear for there diet.
Your post seems a little hostile I better damn well be were I want be with my goals set. And saying that in my last week of npp im happy as can be with my gains and my bf dropping 3% during this process. Truth be told I use a Internet bf calculator after taking measurements and personaly I would say im probably still at 14%. The measurements do come out to 13% but im not showing full abs like I think I should be at a slimmer 13%.
Amen bigmurph, definitely was hostile. There's so much mixed things on here when people chime in. All you did was give your opinion and get called out. For what? You're a good dude bigmurph. Keep up the good work my friend. Happy 4th of July weekend bro! Stay safe.
bigmurphI appreciate that brother me and Irish go back a while so its been his way for awhile he I believe is mad at alot of the newer guys at eroids but when I first got here he was a good guy.
You have a good weekend also brother