+ 2 Low or high e2? Long story,first cycle
Hello all, and thank you for taking the time to read my thread first of all! I have some questions/issues with my first ever cycle and id like to hear ur opinion on it. Long time lurker,however first time posting.
Context before i start asking questions
I am 28 years old with 6 years of natural training under me.
Current stats: 81kgs, 172cm height and around 9%bf.
Pre cycle: 77kgs, and around 11-12%bf
I have proper understanding of nutrition, calories, macronutrient breakdown and proper training protocol with progressive overload. Already competed 4 times took the overall in my division in my country. I was itching to try a cycle and now i pulled the trigger 6 weeks ago. Now to the point.
I ofcourse did bloodwork pre cycle, checked my cortisol,estradiol, test, fsh/lh, prolactine, general blood work(liver enzymes,blood pressure, red/white blood cells etc) everything was looking great.
Now to my issue. I have yet to find my sweet spot on estrogen control, i think.
My current 12 week cycle:
Test e 250mg e3d
Hcg 200iu e3d
Hgh 2iu (1iu morning,1iu pre afternoon training)
Adex 0.75 eod(was 0.25-0.5 eod but blood work done end of week3 showed elevated e2 lvs,bumped it to 0.75eod)
Clen 40mg (2d on 1 day off every 2 weeks)
Pct week 13-14: hcg and adex taper
3x 250 iu hcg
0.5adex eod week 13
0.25 adex eod week 14
Week 15-16
Nolva 40ed
Clomid mg ed
Week 17-18
Nolva 20 ed
Clomid 25 ed
The cycle is a recomp-lean gains oriented and since its my first i thought to go with just test e and hgh as per the norm. I chose hgh mostly to get rid of some ligament/tendon/joint issues i inherited from powerlifting training the last 2 years.
And now to the issue.
For the first 2 weeks i felt amazing. Good mood, performance was going up slowly but steady, mid second week i started to see visual changes and i was feeling great. Libido was through the roof, was waking up early in the morning from pain from how stiff i was(pardon me)
Late 3d week to mid 4th i started to get moody,bitchy and i lost libido and morning wood. Worth to mention here is that i was using 0.25-0.5 adex at that point. (3d and 4th week.) did blood work and indeed my estro was too high, so i made the dose to 0.75.
Come 5th week was starting to get back to normal, and overall by the end i was feeling even better than before. I had intercourse almost 3 times per day and the missus was totally spent 
Now though i start to feel the same lethargy,foggy brain,sometimes runny eyes,depression and loss of interest. I have erections however they dont feel as strong and i have a fear of getting soft constantly in the back of my head during intercourse. Lost morning wood btw and left nipple sometimes feels sensitive(needle pinchy feel)
Im planning to get bloodwork again tomorrow however i am concerned about 3 issues:
High/crushed estro
Dht issue
Thyroid issue
I never had thyroid issues and i was also never prone to gyno. I feel like adex on 0.75 eod is quite high but i guess everything is individualised. My guesstimate would be that too much test+ hcg pile up and i have elevated e2 lvs. However, I am new to learning the estro symptoms and it seems like i have both high and low symptoms. I know they are quite similar however i dont have the experience to distinguish yet. Thoughts please? Sorry for long post. I thought it would be better the more context i provide. Ps, is my pct looking ok?
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What da f actually happened here?!!!!
I thought the fella was being genuine other than looking for some spoonfeeding, no?!?!
I can't make heads or tails with what you have going on here. I have some theories but you are all over the place here. Gonna have to post up your bloodwork first before going any further.
Why did I even bother. lol. Now I see he is banned.
First, I think you need to shoot us straight on weight height and age. You just don't match your brand new profile.
71 kgs? Kids, in Amerca that's 156 lbs.
Pre-cycle you were 170 lbs at 5-8"? WtF? You have been training for 6 years? WTF?
You have competed 4 times and won the division in your country??? WTF? Are you competing in the 5th grade division? If that's the case then hell yes you have your diet nailed down. If not....
Bro, I'm not buying the goods.
PangeeIll try and reply as polite as possible although ur response is making this really hard. Can you even read? I am 81kgs which translates close to 180lbs. Last time i checked this was not rookie stats in 8-9% bodyfat measurements unless ur living in a country where kids have finaplix for brealfast. I compete at that weight in 5-6% bodyfat. Last time i checked 2kgs below your height in contest shape with glutes dialed in wasnt that bad for a natural bodybuilder. Now if you can cut it short with that elitistic and pompous attitude maybe you will be able to have some proper reading comprehension. I was nothing but polite in all my posts and tried to maintain posting protocol, yet somehow an elitistic douchebag that has a few cycles under his belt acts like this. Learn your manners, post something productive like the rest of the posters did or move along.
Thank you for being polite. I have been getting my feelings hurt a lot lately and it means a lot.
Can I read? Yes, thank you for asking. I am actually a very good reader. Even good enough to read your stats on your profile page. They are even more un-impressive than the stats that you posted.
That being said, I thought it was kind of rude for you to call me an elitist douchebag. It wasn't me being an elitist, it was just me caring. You see, I care about all of you kids. I don't want any of you to hurt yourselves.
I know how easily I got hurt when I was your size (in the third grade) and that shit isn't fun.
I hope you'll forgive me if you thought I didn't care, because I do. You are special to me. No homo. Super special. If we were in prison, I would let you hold on to my inside out pocket.
At any rate. Good luck in your Bitchery.
Surely you won't last long here.
PangeePardon that i didnt bother with my profile stats,wasnt aware that this was facebook
and trying to belittle my stats and progress is just a poor attempt of trolling. I wont lose sleep of ur opinion on how i look,since the post i made has nothing to do with it. Another piece of evidence on how strong your reading comprehension is. Ad hominem attacks is the norm here then?
RustyhookerLook kid. Click on your own avatar. Says 38. Here you post 28. You posted 150ish pounds at your height. You were asked on dosing, how you got .75 on a tab. Nothing adds up.
Post a selfie bruh.
PangeeEdited, wasnt aware that my stats where wrong in the profile, my bad on that,i apologise. However i posted my current stats at the opening post at the thread,dont even know why the stats on prof where wrong. 38? LOL, not even close i still have a babyface
RustyhookerApparently its Facebook as you pointed out above. Guys below will help. I think you're bout 19 tops
PangeeI find it quite amusing that in almost 30 years old i have to prove the legitimacy of my age to a forum. I mean, i reply according to the answer i get. I kept proper etiquette, posted stats in thread,read all stickies,did bloodwork and im aware of the subject to an extend,but somehow its not enough. Well my apologies if im not the gods guift of aas the members of this forum are and sorry to ask on the first place. The guys that actually tried to help instead of trying to find "mishaps" in the post or my stats or whathave you where addressed with utmost respect,if you read the replies i made. Im not salty at all honestly,i get it you get 100 threads per day with kids hoping on pill only cycles or fully wrong structured ones. This is not it though, i legitimately was seeking opinion of mature people that have experience in using aas since its my first cycle. If a mod sees this thread, please let me know if i was disrespectful AT ANY point other than when i was disrespected. Actually some of you are acting like kids with ad hominem attacks. I dont see a reason for this toxic beheaviour.
Can you post an edited (to remove personal/location details) image of the results. Different testing/locations/labs use different units of measurement and ranges.
17.... isnt that at the bottom end of range? Please post pic with units etc...
dont switch from adex just yet, I would recommend changing nothing until a couple of the med lads in here get a look at your results
had you taken adex in the 24hours prior to testing?
PangeeYes i can ill do that first thing in the morning when i get my thyroid tests aco as well. Ill post previous blood work as well, pre 3weeks in cycle,4weeks in cycle and the ones i did today. Ill try and cover address etc to maintain proper posting etiquette,cheers for that
PangeeOk so results are in. Estro are at 17 which is pretty ok, prolactin is on 7, which again is in the normal range. Waiting for thyroid hormones tomorrow. One thing i noticed is that i took 0.25 adex today and half an hour after i took it my brain turned into a mushy fog. No consentration and felt like i was hit by a truck. Last time i pinned hcg was on sunday and im thinking to just pin once a week for now 250ius. Keeping test at 2x 200 mg and gonna try and find aromasin instead of adex. I really wished it was an estrogen issue now im worried about my thyroid
RustyhookerHow are you using .75? Liquid? Ugl or pharma?
They got ya below on testing.
lie much? Age: 38.....Height: 173....Weight: 71...BF:
Might post up pix. You lost 10 years somehow. 5-7 @ 155? You competed in what?
Its just funny, same people that agreed with you about asking for stats and also checking them as well, are the same ones blindly giving advice. No wonder people dont follow the rules.
RustyhookerAnd if ya neg em....they just buddy bump ot back. The op story is bullcrap. Dudes a kiddie. Smh
Those folks shoulda either pushed we become meso on that forum or folliwed guidelines the mods outlined in that forum
Pangee28 not 38,might wanna re-read that. And i was competing natty on stage weight 69-70kgs.
Adex is pharm as far as i know, and i use a pill cutter to dice it. Wife is a doctor so i got nice support on accessories
Have an apoointment for bloods tomorrow, ill update. Thank you all for ur input so far. Actually today i skipped my hcg and adex dose and just pinned my normal test e and im feeling better. Ill do thyroid, e2, cortisol and prolactin bloods tomorrow unless the doc says its unneeded. In that case ill just do estrogen lvls. If estro is indeed high ill do what u suggested and try 0.25-0.5ed for more stable levels. Again guys thank u for the support.
PS i dont know if its from the nasty sunburn i got on sunday but my hair feel a bit more brittle and thin than usual.
PS 2 is my pct looking ok?
I re read that myself it says your 28, but elsewhere you said 38, might want to check into your age amnesia.
PCT needs work
pct too short, front load is backwards, front load not optimal even is reversed
hcg on cycle creates estrogens in the balls that AI's cannot control
research hcg, research AAS compound half lives
HCg can definitely fuck with e2, and by way of two different mechanisms. I bet you can use way less, or just skip it till the end of the cycle. My TRT dose is just 250 iu a week, it does everything it should at that low dose. I would have thought that only guys on heavy doses of HCG, like HCG monotherapy would experience hard to control e2 issues.... but you never know.
Giarrdap, can you expand on your thoughts on his PCT? seems to be the cookie cutter eroids pct. 2 weeks off,
4 weeks of pct with full dose for 2 weeks and half dose for another 2.
Definitely lots of ways to PCT, and every forum seems to have a little different idea of the perfect PCT
Agreed 100% on hcg.
Re: PCT... well, with longer esters it takes a spell to get it out of your system (5x half life), so I feel the post cycle therapy period should cover the duration to where the compounds are not influencing natural systems. Now I know that time to steady state varies, and same for removal of compounds and you don't necessaarly need to be 100% in or out for influence, but if we are going to set a protocol for ourselves without really fully knowing where we are at, it's better to be cautious and let the cookie cutter be based on the generally accepted pharmacokinetic properties of a given substance. So 5x 10.5 days = 52.5 days, which I feel is how long a pct period should cover test E.
Conversely, the same cookie cutter cycle is overkill for an acetate ester cycle and certainly for a no ester cycle. So for me, the cookie cutter is not even a rough guide, its makey uppp at best.
As for frontloading. You can font load the first day of Clomid to achieve steady state and moving to proper dose from 2nd day onwards, if you choose.
The perfect PCT is the PCT that gets an individual to optimal running state where exog substances are not affecting our HPGA. It's all subjective.
PangeeCan you dirct me to some proper links? And i didnt understand whats wrong with my pct,can u please ellaborate more? Waiting estro and prolactin blood results back soon
Here is a copy/paste citing some conclusions from a study back in 79'
2. Activated Aromatase. So why is estradiol often higher with HCG? The reason for this is likely one presented in an older study dating back to 1979"
"The data presented in this report unequivocally demonstrate that Leydig cells from mature rats have the capacity to aromatize testosterone to estradiol. Furthermore, hCG acutely stimulates aromatization in purified Leydig cells. HCG stimulation of estradiol production from testosterone was demonstrated with saturating concentrations of testosterone. This observation indicates that the effect of hCG is on stimulation of the aromatase enzyme(s) and is not due to increased production of testosterone, the substrate for aromatase." [4]
Basically, HCG will to tend to maximize the activity of aromatase itself, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol.
PangeeYeah i was reading that just now. Basically hcg stimulates aroma in the leydig cells and i would prolly need a stronger ai to penetrate deeper into the denser lipid cells. Should i drop the hcg alltogether or keep it at 1x 250 iu instead of 2x250ius? And my bloodwork didnt show elevated estro levels. Note that i took adex 0.25 today and since then im feeling like i was hit by a truck
I always get a little sleepy after my adex dose, not bad but drowsy. I take it before bed and never ever before hitting the gym
I saw your e2 was down to 17 pg/nl
thats pretty low.
I shoot for 25 to 30 on trt ( hit or miss) and 30 to 60 on a cycle. I feel pretty good on a wide range of e2...
Maybe hi e2 is what makes me as Rusty called, captain save-a-hoe.. lol
PangeeIll keep adex on 0.25 eod and ill take it at night then. Ill stick with 1x 250iu hcg and 2x 200g test e for a week and see from there. Hopefully thyroid results will turn out good.
have you run much hgh before?
I got sleepy as fuck from peptides, never fucked with hgh
PangeeNah thats my first cycle i thought to pop my cherry with the standard test e/hcg but added the hgh for overall wellness and to help me with some ligament/tendon issues, sleep better etc. thank you for all your help btw mate,really appreciate it. I was really skeptical to post since i saw alot of times ppl getting flamed,however i tried to keep the protocol and provided as much info as possible and do everything right. I guess good judgment comes from alot of experience and alot of experience comes from alot of ad judgment
I did my first cycle with the help of my brother's right here at eroids.
They advised me to keep it super simple. I have dabbled with other compounds but now four years later find myself a fan of the most basic testosterone only cycle.
PangeeI knew i was gonna pin one day but i thought id do it after i learned about proper dieting,training principles, compete to see my potential,be of an age that is "safe" etc etc
Sure thing Pangee...
www.google.ie
https://scholar.google.com
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
Research hcg, research AAS compound half lives, get real info, not forum broscience
You need to learn about this stuff.
RustyhookerYour posted stats dude. Smh.....you cant remember your age?
Another thought, just on my experience, while I was on cycle I was having a hard time dialing in my e2. Was very high, then would drop extremely low. At that time I was using aromasin. Around the 6 week mark I switched to .25 ed of arimidex and it made all the difference in the world. Just something to think about.
yeah its amazing how fast the body can respond isnt it?
I do my aro every 12 hours now!
Makes sense, especially if that person is sensitive with e2
CBurr nailed it. Bloods first.
On E2, you are taking a reasonably methodical approach to this. Finding the sweet spot is about perseverance. This isn't necessarily advice, but if it were me I would just keep going to find the effective dose for you. I think you are a swift responder so plasma lifecycle is key for you most likely.
Analyse this image below. You will see that increasing your dose on a eod/48 hour basis leaves you with plasma levels close to the same regardless of whether its .5 .75 or 1mg. Therefore you may be hitting a nice initial peak and then it just loses efficacy for at least half of the time to next dose.
The image clearly shows that if you want steady plasma levels of any dose, you need a administration schedule of at least every 24 hours and if you look very closely, 12 hours is far better (if you want stable plasma levels and I would imagine a good fast responder would do so.
Again not advice really on what to do but if it were me, I would get bloods now. Then on confirmation of high estro (likely) I would drop the dose to .5 ED and really keep an eye on how I am feeling. You should get bloods again but I know I wouldnt want to be in the docs every 2nd week for this so Id watch for early warning signs of crashed estro like inability to hold water and creaky joints/crackly knees etc (probably sub15 at that stage.... or, creep the dose up as needed such as .75 ed.
image:
Hi, your lethargy fogy brain, depression and loss of interest are symptoms of an underactive thyroid. Ive been battling that for years. But in all those years I have never had any of the other side effects you described because of it. Wouldnt rule it out but a tsh test would tell you. Best if read by a dr because it can be confusing, low number too much hormone, hi not enough. Get the test, at least you have piece of mind then.
Another thought, although I wouldnt think it would give you an itchy nipple, have you taken any time off? Perhaps some overtraining? I did this awhile back and it was suggested by those much smarter in these things than I and I felt a million times better once I came back.
Props for posting your stats.
Its all just guessing till you get bloods done, but my guess is that you take too much adex
Cant reslly speculate on thyroid, doubt it is causing problems though.
Never used hgh, but doesnt it cause lethargy in some people?
+2 for stats and doing your own homework.
Hope you gey it figured out, everday on cycle should feel fricken awesome.
PangeeThank you man, i know and its come to the point im really feeling depressed and started to interfere with how i perform at work, my head is constantly fogy. Another thing is tge inability to maintain solid sleeping paterns. I just woke up after 4 hours of sleep, and i was actually dead tired when i went to bed. The problem is last time i thought estro was too high,however the blood work showed it was around 57 pg/ml (which was a tad higher than what it should) its the end of the month and bloods will push my wallet but ill try and get em tomorrow, at least for e2. I have a full blood/hormone check scheduled for next week but this cant wait :/
When I have issues on cycle i start eliminating shit. I know i can feel great witb just test, so i go back to basics.
My TRT dosr of hcg is 250 iu per week.
Clen seems like something that would fuck up your sleep.
Hgh, could make you drowsy
PangeeThe first 2 weeks clen was a breeze, bit shakey in the morning but after 3-4 days it subsided. Hgh does make me feel a bit drowsy but this is a whole other level
surprisingly im feelin quite better today, i couldnt make blood work as i had to rush to work urgently. Thinking to skip todays adex dose and hcg and just pin test. Or even male the adex 0.5 instead of skipping the dose. Id love to hear more ppl thoughts on it maybe someone with similat experience