+ 1 First Cycle- Cutting Cycle Input Appreciated
Stats:
34yo 6'1" 225lbs 17%bf
So I've been lifting as a natural for a couple of years and have been through a couple of bulking and cutting cycles. I've noticed that when I am in a caloric deficit, even a small one, I lose muscle mass pretty quickly (especially in my lower body) but find it impossible to cut belly fat/ love handles. Even down to 12% I seemed to keep almost all of the abdominal fat and ended up just looking skinny again. What is even worse is my strength goes into the toilet and I lose any desire to train because of this. I am assuming that this has to do with hormone/ cortisol levels?
I am hoping that an AAS cycle will help preserve my muscle gains so I can finally get a decent cut done and shed this body fat.
Here is my proposed cycle:
Wk 1-12 300mg Test E .25mg Arimidex EOD, more as needed
250-500 IU HCG/ wk starting week 3
Wk 8-12 50mg Anavar ED
Wk 13 - 75 mg test P E3D .25mg Arimidex EOD, more as needed
Wk 14 -50 mg test P E3D 1000-2000 IU HCG 25mg Arimidex EOD, more as needed
Wk16 100mg/ ED Clomid 20mg ED Nolvadex .25mg Arimidex EOD, more as needed
Wk16-18 50mg ED Clomid 10mg ED Nolvadex .25mg Arimidex EOD, more as needed
Blood tests Pre Cycle at Week 6 and 4 weeks post PCT?
Keep in mind this is my first cycle and the goal is to lean out and cut fat, building additional muscle would be awesome but I understand it is theoretically not possible in a deficit. I will be eating clean and likely carb cycling with a target of BMR-500 cal/ day with 4 days a week fasted cardio and 4+ days week lifting ( I am hoping the AAS will help preserve muscle and energy so I can train as much as possible )
I would like to finally lean out, take the appropriate amount of time off and do a proper bulk on cycle #2 while maintaining BF below 12-14%
Like I said, any help is greatly appreciated.
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Simple question...How many grams of protein are you taking in while you cut?
I try to hit 250g/ day. I usually have to supplement with whey protein to keep cals low
My advice would be to hit 400gr per day while cutting. Drop your carbs to 100gr and moderate fats. Aminos upon waking and while lifting and cardio. This will preserve your muscle mass while in a calorie deficit.
That would be my recommendation also. 100g or less of carbs, 400+ protein and make up the rest of your cals with fat. Shoot for a 750 cal/d deficit.
Ok, will adjust diet to these specs and see how it works out. Thanks Makwa!
Ok, I will give it a shot. I've always read that you don't need more than 1- 1.5g/ lb of lean mass/ day?
I know you are trying to hold muscle/strength during this cut however possibly consider doing a slow and steady cut naturally, then using your first cycle to put on size and strength. There is NO cycle like your first cycle. You will be blown away by how your body reacts to your first cycle. IMO it would be a waste to use your first cycle as a cutter. Whatever strength/size you loose during the natural cut will be tiny in comparison to the gains you will make on your first cycle.
Just my 0.02
I appreciate the input, I've been debating that myself. I will be cutting for at least 6-8wks before I start the cycle anyway. I really just have a terrible time maintaining strength and energy when I'm cutting. My job is pretty physical so long term cuts have beat the hell out of me in the past, I just don't have the energy to train, was hoping a low dose cycle will help with this. Thanks again for your reply.
I'd switch to aromasin during PCT too buddy. As little as 6.25ed or 12.5 EOD. Could possibly even start going lower after a couple weeks.
A couple studies (wish I had them bookmarked for you) have shown that Adex and letro works against (hinders) nolvadex and clomid, which is why aromasin is the best (in my opinion, only) AI to use in PCT
Thanks for the info on Adex/ Aromasin, I hadn't heard that. Will look into it
First off let me say I agree with everything Rusty has said below. Drop the VAR for a first cycle. Agree the lower dose of test is fine to hold mass but would suggest you go to EOD pinning to ensure stable blood levels. Only issue here is as this is a first cycle you need to be confident and comfortable pinning with enough sites to rotate to limit the chance of getting an abscess. 14 weeks is quite a long time for EOD pinning especially if you're new to the game. The other answer is to simple use a low dose of test c/e and pin twice per week.
As you have said you have had issues maintaining muscle when cutting in the past I like your suggestion of cycling your carbs. I can help you here if you like. This is what I found worked best for me. I have had similar issues to you in he past but this worked very well when applied properly.
The other thing is setting up the cut and thinking about it holistically. What do I mean. Well the cycle is just part of it and if you solely rely on this for achieving your goals you may be disappointed. I would suggest you start cutting before you start your cycle. I suggest 8 weeks of slowly reducing your calories and nailing down your carb cycling protocol. During this time you start to introduce cardio (I have found for me to reduce abdominal fat and love handles low impact steady state cardio fasted first thing in the morning works wonders so good call). Start with 2 days a week then go to three, then four and by the time the end of 8 weeks come you are at five. You ahould not lose muscle during this time (provided you have set up your diet correctly) but should see a significant drop in body fat. At which point you start your cycle and ramp up your activity in the gym, continue with your cardio and after about a week you can start cutting calories further (but slowly) and possibly introducing a weekly refeed to replenish depleted glycogen stores. If it were me I would do this for 10 weeks running test prop at 75mg EOD. Blood tests week 4 to check estro levels and dose ai accordingly (shouldn't need it at this dose but as its your first cycle you never know). I don't think you need to run HCG at all for a simple low dose test cycle so I would drop that or if you really feel the need to then just to a blast at the end of your cycle. Benefit here is you shorten your cycle (and the amount of pinning) and are not relying solely on the gear to achieve your goals. Take another look at your PCT doses and duration. Wait 3 days after last pin of test prop (two weeks if you use test c/e) and then run 100/100/50/50 Clomid and 40/20/20/20 Nolva for four weeks. Check levels 6 weeks after PCT has finished.
Last bit of advice. You mention you think your issues stems from hormone/cortisol. So before you do anything get your blood work done including cortisol, full thyroid function tests, electolytes, full blood count and of course the femal hormone panel. This is important to know your baseline and empower you to make an informed choice before you go and mess with your endocrine system.
Give me a shout if you need any help or want to chat about anything I've mentioned.
Hey Dacky. Thanks again for your advice.
I got the blood tests done and everything looks ok - liver, thyroid, metabolic, kidneys, blood etc but my test levels were low - around 380, had them checked a couple months back and they were in the low 400's. I've got some of the symptoms of low T and the first doc offered TRT treatment but I avoided it because I didn't want the long term commitment if I didn't have to. I am following up with the doc in a week to talk to him about the results.
So I am wondering, with levels that low, is a cycle a good idea? I imagine the recovery/ PCT could really kick my ass if I am starting with a baseline that low. I am guessing that my options are either stay off AAS or plan on blasting and cruising? I am just wondering what I can expect if this is my starting point. Your input is appreciated.
Do you have your LH and FSH numbers from the bloodwork? Could help to determine if Clomid monotherapy is an option. The guys below have it nailed, sure TRT solves a bunch of issues but it also can create it's own issues. I don’t quite "feel" normal from TRT. I don’t think you should do a cycle until you figure out what's going on with your lowish test numbers. One cycle could mess up your endocrine system and force you to jab a needle in your body for the rest of your life.
LH 3.1 (1.7-8.6 scale)
FSH 3.5 (1.5-12.4 scale)
Estradiol 14.7 (7.6-42.6 scale)
I considered either Clomid or HCG but when I asked the first doc (TRT clinic) about those he said that he didn't do those in his practice (but he also said that estrogen levels are not a concern so I really don't know if I can trust his opinion). So I got the second blood test on my own and plan on taking it to my MD next week.
I understand the dangers of a cycle but it looks like I might be headed towards TRT anyway, part of me just wants to say fuck it and blast away but I know better...
Thanks for your help
Neither one looks disproportionately low so I'm gonna have to punt to someone smarter than me. Good thing is you seem like you've done your homework and you are taking this one step at a time. It's good to see someone cautiously considering TRT because it isn't always puppy dogs and rainbows.
Talk with your doc and if you decide the best course of action is trt, don't plan on running a cycle for quite sometime. It may take up to a year to get your trt dose dialed in and you don't want to screw that up by trying to run a cycle while dialing that dose in.
Thanks Makwa. Do you think those baseline levels are too low for a cycle if I don't go the TRT route?
Baseline levels aren't going to have an effect on your cycle. What I would be more concerned about is being on trt for life after your cycle because running a cycle with those borderline lower levels may not allow you to recover to normal levels.
Thanks, that is my concern, not the cycle itself but PCT.
All I can tell you is that TRT sucks. It is not all it is cracked up to be. Things still feel "off" compared to functioning on natural testosterone. It is a big decision so be prepared for the consequences.
Thanks for the honesty, everyone I've talked to so far say that TRT is all sunshine and rainbows but I guess they would feel that way if they felt like shit before.
Since you are on TRT, do you discuss your cycles/ AAS use with your doc? I am a little concerned about bringing it up. I know that patient - doctor privilege supposedly protects you from legal trouble but I'm not sure of the details on that. I was going to make another post with that question.
I don't discuss my cycling with my doc. Blood tests are all planned around for when I am off cycle.
Spot on mate. That is exactly the concern and the crux of your decision making is there. TRT and/or cycling then trying to recover sufficiently from lowish test levels is a significant decision and much will depend on your current circumstances and future plans.
Thanks brother. Seems like I'm in a shitty spot - not low enough to completely justify TRT and too low to cycle. WTF haha
Makwa's got you covered there fella. My personal view is I would really think about it. It's lowish but not the lowest for sure. But as you have symptoms a cycle is going to compound the issue.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. The diet starts Monday and the cycle likely won't start until May so I've got time to dial things in. I'm picking up a stationary bike for the cardio and hope to work my way up to a consistent 4+ days a week fasted cardio along with lifting by the time the cycle starts.
As far as the Test P goes, is that the best ester for cutting? I suppose I could handle the EOD pinning but sounds like that could get pretty uncomfortable if there is PIP. I've heard that, depending on the source, test P can be a bastard for PIP.
Blood tests are set for next week and a follow up with the doc is scheduled before I start cycle so if there are any issues, I will address them before starting any cycle.
Thanks again for your help.
Good stuff mate. Seems like you're already on the right path so all that's needed is getting your diet nailed down. As I said I'm happy to help here - I've accepted your FR. I'm also interested to see your pre-cycle blood work so pls PM me or post it back here when you get the results.
Regarding prop as the best test ester for cutting. Some would say yes but it's mainly for three reasons. 1. They're stacking with other short esters so want to match, 2. It kicks much faster - not a big deal unless you're in a radical deficit which is ill advised at the start of a cut for our needs and 3. There is a school of thought that you get less bloat with prop relative to e/c. The latter is only relevant if you are prone to bloat which you won't know until you try and even then it's not a big deal unless it's because your estro has sky rocketed - again you won't know because you have t run a cycle before. Even if you are prone to bloat this can be easily delt with by taking 500mg am and 500mg PM of vitamin c - I promise it works so do his from day 1 - and an ai if/when your blood work warrants it. Oh and make sure you drink 6 to 8 litres of water per day. This is a must - very important.
My strong advise to you is to use test e/c for this first cycle. 400mg to 500mg per week for 12 weeks will be perfect. EOD pinning for 10 weeks with prop has the potential to get very uncomfortable quick - prop can have quite a kick especially for someone who isn't practised in pinning. And then as mentioned there is always the risk of an abscess. Using test c/e will not only allow you to test how your body responds to test but it allows you a safer way to learn how to pin.
Hope his helps.
Thanks so much for the info. Diet has started, bloodwork should be back this week. Will check back in before and during cycle.
It's a pleasure and good luck brother. Enjoy your first cycle.
Rustyhooker^^^^^^^old school eroids style! Fkyes!
I have the same stats other than age and I know what it's like to try to cut. I got down to around 15% on my last cycle but it wasn't a comfortable 15%. My next cycle will be a full on bulk hoping for 240-245 and staying around 18-20%. Then I'll try to cut again. +1 for coming in with research and a good plan ahead of time. Keep us updated
Cutting definitely sucks. I'm a powerlifter so a bf around or below 15% is good for me, no need to get diced for a show or anything like that. I don't know how bodybuilders do it to be honest. Single digit bf just looks painful...
RustyhookerYou're a tall guy so its easiest to tear down the machine and rebuild it up from a lean state. The mental war of skinny vs a new start has to be seen and visualized.
Food is the control on this cycle. Cutting or bulking is foods. Testosterone helps in recovery and maintaining your muscles. Having foods done right will help that test do its job. Underfuel the protein and mass will drop. Catalyst has a food forum in General section on the top part. Participate in there.
Nothing wrong with a lower dose of test in order to hold mass while you burn off fat in the gym. Week 5 get your bloods done to determine adex dosing. Or you're blindly guessing.
Personally I'd stick to just test. No var . Learn the test and how it works in your body. Id skip the taper as well. Keep it simple. If you were coming off 500 or more and had more cycles run, sure. But your goals need diet dictation. Chicken, tilapia, lean meats, veggies as fillers, complex carbs which are cut out by 1. Sweat in the gym.
Catalyst, makwa and tonytulos forums on foods.
Thanks Rusty. As always, your help is appreciated. Will save the var for another cycle. Is test E ok for cutting? I've heard the longer esters cause bloating/ weight gain