Dbol, test e, tren a cycle (2nd time w tren)
I'm currently 8 weeks into my cycle and seeing good results training hard and eating clean. So far I have gained 15 lbs after dbol water dissipated (not much bloat). Here is my stats cycle and questions below.
Age-27
Ht-6ft
Wt-232
Bf- 17-18
Cycle History
1-sustanon only 10wks
2-Test E Winny 10 wks
3 Test E Tren Ace 12 wks
Weeks 1-6 Dbol 30mg/ed
Weeks 1-8 Test Cyp 600mg/wk
Weeks 9-16 Test E 400mg/wk
Weeks 9-16 Tren Ace 75mg/ed
Weeks 9-16 hcg 500iu/week
AI/PCT
Adex .5mg/eod (on dbol)
Adex on hand if needed after dbol
Caber .5mg twice a week
Nolvadex
Clomid
Hcg
Liver/Organ support
If any pros can help me with the caber since I never ran Tren at this dose nor used caber. I started Tren today, should I start the caber the same week or wait longer to run the caber? I was never sensitive to AAS but Tren I know can be crazy. I'd like to have the least amount of drugs in my system while maintaining a safe run. So to clearify is my Tren dose sufficient and should I start caber or wait to see how I react over time without it? Thanks guys.
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I've seen really good results running test e at 750-1000mg per week and keeping the tren to around 400. I'm not sure why you'd drop your test from 600 to 400 either. any reason for that?
The reason for dropping the test dose was because of multiple studies I read about tren and test doses at a 2:1 ratio. Basically because the progesterone and prolactin side of tren are more so caused by aromatizing test and high estrogen levels. I've talked to many people who think I should do it this way and let the tren do it's job use test just as a base. What do you think of this bro?
Im no pro, but all is see here is a list of stuff, that is not being used right, not needed or just not making sense as a combo
for example, what's the caber for, why do you think you need it at all?
Also..... worst words ever used in ref to AAS: "on hand"/"in case"/"if needed"
Can you elaborate on the "on hand" comment?
Surely that's a good thing??
As pege said not everyone needs an ai so why take one for the sake of it???
And end up crashing your e2
You know what, I take the "on hand" comment back. Of course its a good thing to have a supply of things you may need.
But I do make the point that managing estro manages prolactin, so... you wouldnt, unless there is some other reason like fake tren or deca, need caber on a tren cycle... my point is why buy something you dont need (the original implication was that on a tren cycle, caber on hand is needed... im just arguing its not)
Re: Ai - I never said take one for the sake of it!!!! I said manage estro with an ai. Again, this really is a follow up from when a problem arises... i.e. it will be Estro related
ideal world, we would know our E2 levels via bloods every 24 hours and work around that
I agree with the estrogen/prolactin thing.....
But look at it this way....... on a basic test e 500mg a week cycle I may need 3mg of arimadex per week.
I then add 400mg tren e a week to the 500mg of test e a week.
Now do you think it's sensible to add another 3mg a week arimadex =6mg a week total....or add 1mg of caber split 0.5mg m9nday Friday for the same affect????
Less drugs same results......it's a no brainer mate.
And just to add there is also the possibility of overdosed gear which would leave you in shit Street without the correct tools to fix the problem
I see what you are doing there, I see the logic you are using dude and I should stress, there is no debate from me around whether caber can treat high prolactin.
However, high estro (from test and/or tren) leads to more problems than raising prolactin levels, such as gyne etc. So if we presume not to treat estro and just go for prolactin, its flawed as we risk other issues. If on a test e cycle and needing arimidex, it will be needed for estro...
Caber is aimed at prolactin, right?... whereas Adex is aiming for Estro...
Therefore, they are not like for like, and an mg of one is not comparable to an mg of another, so the comparison doesnt make sense and the results are not the same (you can lower prolactin and still have high Estro leading to related estro sides
The flaw in the logic is that you are treating a symptom of high estro (the symptom being high prolactin) by targeting the symptom and not the cause (or, not preventing the cause in the first place) - this is the whole point of what I am getting at. We need to go for the cause of the issue and we shouldn't necessarily be loading the press with meds
Re@ OD'd gear, yes, totally which will raise estro potentially, or worse again something that is a different compound causing god knows what... yep, all risks when doing UG
think you got it a little mixed up my friend ,
i am not e2 sensative. , that does not mean i dont have adex , and aro on hand. (pharma ) also tren is a 19 nor , and there is a possibility of a e2 sensative person letting his e2 get out of whack and with a 19 nor. your prolactin also can elevate. and whats used for that. caber. .or another da .
so i beg to differ with you on this. , i generaly dont even need a ai , but from time to time i elevate so i have it if needed. ,
Hey man, sorry just seeing your responses here. So re: Caber usage, what I am saying is that if you manage Estro (I am saying manage estro, not take things for the sake of it) it will prevent an + of prolactin
This is well documented.
But, I hear you on having adex in case, I get what you're saying.
Caber? Cabergoline (dostinex) is a dopamine agonist which is used to combat the 19nor coverting into progesterone resulting in prolactin build up, which are tits. Why I choose "on hand" be cause I don't agree that you have to run drug after drug in combination w more drugs to run a successful cycle. Why take ancillaries more than needed if I am not sensitive or reacting badly. But just because I haven't had bad sides in the past doesn't mean I won't ever, which is why they are "on hand" in case they are needed. That's as far as arimidex my caber I'm asking the question should I run it right away to prevent sides or just see how it goes without?
You've got it wrong mate. High Est causes prolactin release when using the likes of Tren/Deca.
It is a good thing you dont agree its wise to run drug after drug, but by not knowing what causes high prolactin, you are doing exactly that by adding caber to the mix.
Please do a little bit of research (not forums) on lets say Google scholar, search advanced search for estrogen prolactin and you will see pretty quickly, in anything related to rats/mammals/humans that the high est (estradiol), causes prolactin release.
Ai to manage the est hormone is all that is needed, oh maybe with more frequent injections - with tren ace you should do ED, with tren E, I cant remember, but you could easily google both the half life and the peak plasma levels - ideally you inj around the dropoff which might be 5 days like test e, im not sure, youd need to check
Rustyhooker^^^^^^ bad info all around. Use bloods to back up your theories. The gurus and vets here have thought the same til it bit their asses. Prolactin and estro are controlled by different mechanisms.
Bloods or broscience!
I hit thumbs down on this by accident! (fat fingers!). Also reading from bottom up, so saw this after your second post, whoops.
Anyways....
Rusty my man, you are killing me on this thread! What is it that I have said that's wrong here? Is it that you disagree with when I say a +in estro leads to a + in Prolactin???
Some say run hcg once every 3 weeks,some say 8 weeks onwards and some say start to finish or when cycle is done to kickstart the nuts at a high dose,fuck looks like opinions differ in the community here,as well as the professional.
HCG is a pretty simple hormone and easily used. What differs really, are opinions on protocols.
It just depends on what people actually want.
It's pretty easy to figure out what is right for you personally. For example; if you dont want your balls to shrivel on cycle, use hcg on cycle.... if you dont want testicular function to shut down on a medium to longer cycle, completely, then use hcg on cycle, if you simply dont care about your balls and just want to restart testes function, to stim natural test production etc, then take it at the end of the cycle and into PCT (for a period of time), and so on....
Your still on here giving bad advice it's a well known fact that a 19 nor like deca can cause high prolactin.. I have bloods where my estro was normal range and prolactin was elevated I had caber on hand I just didn't take until the bloods showed I needed it ... the members on here and experience trumps google
Im not you, so I cannot analyse your bloods, dont know what compounds you were taking, ai's etc...
You had + prolactin, treated with caber? Cool, good for you man, that's great you sorted it, however, the question stands, what caused it, if a 19-Nor, how so, what was the mechanism? (you seem to have completely misread/misunderstood the things I have said)
Do you think at some point, I said that taking 19-nors does not cause a spike in prolactin? (I didnt say that, so....)
So, in response. I am not giving bad advice, I use search engines and research tools other than google!!! and if you would like to properly quantify your own experience, that's great it could only serve as a learning tool, for me, you everyone that reads on it,
But as a person that's posting references from an TRT clinician, you'd think you would know that they dial treatments in for individuals, because treatment is subjective, right?
Again, 19-Nors and prolactin, all I said was its Estro that causes the + in prolactin. If I am wrong about that, please tell me how, and I am genuinely asking because nobody seems to be able to answer this??
Rustyhookermore broscience b.s. crap. Sugfest you fond a new hobby before youre negged into troll stats
Hes got his Google MD
He does indeed, You could call it Bro-Research!
.
At the risk of inviting your wrath Rusty my man!!!!..... pray tell... what exactly is it that I have said that has you saying that?
Please note, I gave no advice on dosages, durations, how to periodise hcg, what functions it keeps alive or doesnt, how it acts inside the body other than a-b, etc... so am genuinely confused as to what it is that has gotten your attention?
Take hcg for long enough (which isn't long) will create a negative feedbackloop....which will still see your balls shrink into dust and spike your e2 levels
Are you saying running hcg causes long term suppression of LH or that the spike in estrogen will shut down your natty test via negative feedback ?
By the time you are running hcg on cycle or Trt your natty test production is already shut down.
Your are supplying exogenous LH so not sure what you are saying here about running hcg long enough will shrivel your nuts ..
I hate to tell you this doesn't make sense at all what would the negative feedback loop shut down think about it.
Not the spike in estrogen mate... the spike in "extra test"
Hcg= suppressed LH at a certain dose or length of time being ran resulting in no LH being produced
HCG= testosterone production resulting in more suppression.
I wouldn't say on cycle that you get "shut down" but more suppressed. But the guys on trt will be fully shut down I guess which is why they need trt.
Correct me if I'm wrong bro...I'll take all the knowledge available
Sort of correct, sort of not
Excessive use of hcg isn't recommended (5Kiu+) over longer periods of time.
There were studies in animals supporting what you say, I don't know of any in humans so if you have a ref or link, please share. I know there is debate on the super massive dosages (5K+ over time) but my understanding is that it does not supress at correct dosages
(old ref: Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Testicular Function: Stimulation of Testosterone, Testosterone Precursors, and Sperm Production Despite High Estradiol Levels J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1983) 56 (4): 720-728)
Wrong.
That's what Nolvadex and Clomid does it stimulates the release of lh and fsh to restart natural test production
Hcg stimulates neither it mimics lh which in turn stimulates your nuts into producing test and sperm.
The difference is by mimic lh hcg can suppress natural lh and actually hinder your natural recovery.
If you simply don't care about your balls as you say then you don't care about your natural test production period running hcg on cycle keeps your testicles alive in functioning .
Theirs not a difference of opinion there's bro science and there's what's real
Yes. Good.
Sorry fella, I am not quite sure what you are pouncing on there. HCG is used to restart testicular function, inc natural test production (through a chain of effects). It might not work if someone is so severely shut down that they have a real problem.
Neither Nolvadex or Clomid are essential for PCT. For example HCG and an AI can be used alone. Again, protocols....
"Hcg stimulates neither it mimics......." ---- Yes I am aware of what you are saying, but my understanding is that is from animal studies and/or dosages of 5Kiu+ regularly over 5 month cycles....
So, if you have some non-broscience knowledge you can share with me, I would genuinely love that. So, proof please? Maybe proof that can reference dosages and durations. I am totally open to info, so please do share
Please also note, that I gave no advice on dosages, durations, how to cycle hcg or anything else that could (potentially) warrant your response
" you simply don't care about your balls........." ---- Proof please Brosef
(honestly, if you have some journal articles you could share it would be really valuable)
I go over this in my forum this is BAD advice like flash said
It will suppress your LH and desensitize your testes at the doses needed to stimulate your testes into a restart not to mention you are already combating an estro spike and without nolvadex you are spinning your wheels and with hcg you are increasing estrogen production which is in turn counter productive I cover all this to. -1
Hcg monotherapy is used for hormone replacement therapy not hormone restart therapy that's what the hrt stands for
Nope, this is not bad advice!
Happy to have a read over the forum, got the link on your other reply, thanks
Completely disagree on your comment re: desensitising your LH/testes
looking forward to reading your post though
I think you are starting to blur the lines, at least I think you are, between someone who may have been on TRT or, I dunno, on cycle for a year+ and someone who was previously in perfect health, engages on a medium/longer cycle that shuts him down and then uses HCG to try to give the testes a kick start...
I said Hcg + an AI - this is not monotherapy, 2 compounds. But that aside what exactly are you negging on dude? Are you simply disagreeing that HCG can be used to start/restart certain testicular functions?
EDIT: reading the links on the above, and the links on the other pages, will take some time.
presuming from this you negged the pct statement i made
Disagree if you want I've provided you all the info you need and they aren't conducting studies on cycling they are however on trt so you gotta take what you can.
It's not some bro science it's proven that it will cause desensitization I provided you with that info as well. Believe it or don't I could care less at this point apparently you know everything.
You really should read this.
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Testicular Function: Stimulation of Testosterone, Testosterone Precursors, and Sperm Production Despite High Estradiol Levels J Clin Endocrinol Metab (1983) 56 (4): 720-728
I have never said it does not cause desensitisation, I have said in the correct doses it WILL NOT.
The above human study of men on exog test and without it, is really interesting and will give you some additional insight.
You have jumped all over something here, wrongly, without the full information needed to make a point, and it turns out that clinical studies in humans (don't prove you wrong, but) do prove me right.
EDIT:
5 Mins onwards, again in support of what I have said on desensitisation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARA87WTIqcU&index=53&list=PL0RC5Mg69FHaU...
Nuff said.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/over-40-trt/hcg-open-discussion
All things hcg if you have any questions feel free to ask but don't clutter the post because you are always capable of starting your own.
Open discussion yes clutter and bullshit like one member on there no.
Ok thanks a mill for the links. Now, I have to say, that sort of info is really valuable, I read your post and the 2 links, very interesting. Admittedly, I haven't fully read through the rest of the posts below your OP, so I need to do that of course
On the links, there is nothing there, however, that says anything contradictory to what I have said. There is a lot there that supports the things I have said. so i really would love to pick your brains and see exactly what it is you are negging?
If it is just the PCT point I made? If so, is it the desensitization point you are referencing?
Will have a read for sure
Haven't really spent any time in that forum at all, thanks for the link
Not good.
Ok, how so dude?
Clomid is the most important drug for any pct.
I agree 100% fella
It can be a harsh mo'fo' for some but it absolutely is pivotal
This said, in this post I have not at any stage said what should be used for pct, never referenced best options etc. was only talking about protocols/
Don't think I have dished out any bad advice, just didnt make any recommendations which others seem to be doing
You stated neither nolva or clomid are neccesary for pct, that is wrong.
No it's not fella!
What about other SERMS like Toremifene?
My protocol is 8 weeks onwards till 3 weeks after last pin with 500iu every few days but just depends on what I am running mainly and just cos it works for me will not mean it will work for all.Everybody is different and bloods is the way forward.Unless you just love pumping your self full of shit/drugs
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Pass me some links or study's I can revise bud
I edited cause people been doing it that way for years and on one hand your right if it works and the bloods show then it's good but thanks to advancements in trt alot of studies have come out on hcg and I forget there's more than one way to skin a cat but I will if I get time tonight set up a forum where we can aasall have open discussion and contribute it'll take me a little time to gather all the information I have but it will cover testicular function, LH role in the body , hcgs use in cycling as well as trt, the feedback loop, and some interesting stuff on estrogenic related sides while taking hcg and how to deal with those. I need to brush up anyways and ill dig up some actual medical studies.
But either way 8 weeks ain't bad compared to the typical 3 - 4 weeks of blasting guys do you never want to do high doses like that and I'll go into that to.
That's it Jay
Its completely subjective to the person using it! what works for you, works for you.
Lots of people seem to love throwing in ridiculous amount of compounds and variations these days, not for me though, I like to keep it relatively simple
Here you go me and Jay are friends I've already pmd him and I'm sure he's seen the forum balancing hormones is something that is evolving and new info is being brought to light but this is not new the vets who know their stuff are here and your basically steering people in the wrong direction -1
SMH
ugh!
You should have ran hcg the whole cycle but I see big murph gave you some bad advice there and that 19 nor is going to shut you down hard ... I agree with rusty your cycle is all over the place but it's late now.
Why switch test e and cyp ?
you might not need caber don't take it unless you do just my opinion there's been info posted on dopamine antagonists and how they can be unhealthy to say the least.
if your prolactin is high then you run caber -
http://www.discountedlabs.com/prolactin/
Also if your going to run a trt dose (I don't reccommend it) why the hcg Nolva and Clomid?
I recommend not running the tren but that's just me and next time keep it simple bro
Remember hcg is to keep testicular function alive if you don't run it and let your testes shut down and shrivel up it completely defeats the purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjP6bqYeCxw