+ 3 A year of bloodwork between 2 blasts shows almost identical testosterone blood levels between 200mg/wk & 600mg/wk. Why is this?
Below I made a table showing my bloodwork throughout a year. I did 2 cycles of test only using the same source, going up to 600mg.
What I discovered is that my total test levels are essentially the same cruising at 200mg and blasting at 600mg.
The only thing that changes is aromatization as when I'm on a dose below 200mg/week, I only need about 0.58 AI to get my e2 in range. Compared to needing much more AI with 500-60mg/week. Yet the total test and free test levels are relatively the same. I also gain the water weight at 600mg vs almost no water weight at 200mg.
My biggest question from all of this is: For cycling, would I have similar anabolic results if I did a dose of 200mg instead of 600mg since my bloodwork indicates my test values are essentially the same at 600mg and at 200mg? Or do I still get better anabolism from 600mg through other hormonal spikes besides testosterone?
| BLOOD DRAW DATE | DOSE/WEEK | TOTAL TEST | FREETESET | WEEKLY ARIMIDEX MG | E2 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 7/6/23 | 600 | 2461 | 920 | 0.875 | 101 |
| 7/14/23 | 600 | 2461 | 920 | 1.17 | 29 |
| 9/27/23 | 250 | 2204 | 623 | 0.43 | 69 |
| 10/26/23 | 189 | 2330 | 698 | 0.58 | 38 |
| 12/13/23 | 485 | N/A | N/A | 0.875 | 57 |
| 1/5/24 | 600 | N/A | N/A | 1.17 | 44 |
| 3/4/24 | 540 | 2239 | 814 | 1.17 | 70 (NEW AI SOURCE) |
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Are you taking a female blood panel? Are the lab testosterone results capped at a certain level?
That could explain everything!
I had same almost same issue during first few blasts. I was told by someone here to add in proviron at 50mg daily and that really was a game changer. From what little I understand of it, is it an an accessory that alters SHBG levels in order to allow more free test to float around and allows greater efficiency in transport of hormones/proteins.
I also have all AIs and serms on hand but rarely use them since I don't aromatize easily if that makes a difference.
I wonder if it’s because you still had testosterone circulating in your system from the last testosterone. Bet of you got the blood test a month later it would be different
This is exactly what I've just been thinking bud, its probably just a result of him effectively front loading with 600mg Test during month 7 and then it continuing to build on from there, levelling and then declining over time.
Getting up to 221lb's is a Great Bodyweight jump too mate
Thanks for posting this. Keep us all updated.
Maybe get some Iranian test or some other type of pharma test that’s basically guaranteed to be accurately dosed and try running 200 of that and doing blood work again. Could you give us a hint as to what source you used? My guess is there has to be some type of fuckery going on with the source, the blood work can’t really lie. Obviously there’s like a million others reasons why this could’ve happened so we’ll just be guessing but I think it would be niave to think that the source is a perfectly honest and moral business, no matter which source it was. And even if it was a bad batch or whatever it doesn’t mean the source was scamming or anything, the batch could’ve gotten ruined somehow or they could’ve gotten garbage raws and not known it
I don’t want to name the source (reputable). But when I finish my blast and drop to a cruise in a few weeks I will retest with a new source at 200mg just to make sure. Keep in mind aromatization did change between 600mg and 200mg as I needed 1.16 ai with 600 compared to 0.54 ai at 200mg so this means the doses in the vials were consistent.
I’m thinking I have to be a hyper responder at low doses and my body just doesn’t use the testosterone past a certain point and converts it to other shit like dht is my thinking. Once I retest again when I drop to a cruise using a different reputable source. If my levels are still in the 2,000s then that must be it.
Ya I can respect that. And the free test also changed as well as the aromatization so I guess your right that it obviously a different dose but idk what it is man. Your hypothesis may be correct but I would be interested to see what another sources stuff does to you. Also I believe alot of the anabolism is gunna be determined by the free test which was higher with the 600, so I don’t think running higher is a waste but definitely a case of diminishing returns for sure.
100%....alot of factors
Looks like your Free Test is still higher on the 600mg Test buddy so that is going to be the more productive of the 2 doses ultimately. Could be the batches of Test were different in hormone content, your body could of been utilizing it differently etc.
189 mg a week? That's a strange number. But anyways even that dose should of scored lower than what it did. High score for that dose.
Is pinning schedule and blood draw timing the exact same between the 200/wk and 600/wk?
Yes. I've always pinned ED at night and take AI Ed as well. Pinning schedule has never changed. Same source was used for all bloodwork. So fucking strange.
There's still changes in water weight and how much AI I need between 200mg and 600mg, but the strange shit is that test levels remain the same.
My thinking is I'm a hyper responder at low doses but after 250mg my body doesn't utilize the testosterone and just converts it to other shit. Don't even know if that's possible. But that's all I can think of.
If this is the case i'm wondering If I should just cycle at 250mg next time. Or if I should still do the 500-600mg doses. If test levels are the same then maybe the anabolism should be the same is what I'm thinking. Just don't know if 600mg spikes up other hormones besides test levels that will produce better gains.
Well free test is what really does stuff. Total test doesn’t really matter if it’s all bound to other shit or being converted to E2. And your free test is ~33% higher at 600 vs 250. So I wouldn’t say it’s pointless to pin 600 vs 250 based on total test alone.
I know DHT also increases as I shed some hair at 600mg compared to no shed at 250, but wondering how beneficial that increased DHT is. If it contributes to strength (my strength increases a lot on 600mg) then I definitely want that 600mg. But If I can get away with cycling at 250mg and get similar strength increase and gains that's definitely the way I want to go long term. Based on bloodwork this is the way I'm leaning. May need to do a test run next time and just judge based off actually doing it.
Honestly no one can really give you the answer because this isn't normal at all. There should be a bigger difference and all those numbers seem a little too close. But what you said makes sense I think.
When DHT levels increase so does your strength bro - thats why when you take Superdrol or Masteron your strength goes up, as they are DHT derived compounds which directly act on contractile muscle fibres rather than creating hypertrophy (size).
That would be the variable that’s the deciding factor for next cycles. If the 30% extra free testosterone +whatever extra increase in DHT plus other beneficial hormones (maybe insulin-like growth factor also) is worth doing the 600mg. Or if free test is the biggest hormone that decides muscle growth. If that’s the case then 250mg would make better sense for me.
Either way I don’t have any sides on 600mg besides slight elevated blood pressure and some light hair shed. But just want to go about this the safest route long term.
So my biggest question is if in the end of the day I can get away with the same gains at 250mg with 30% less free test ? Or if the other hormones that increase with 600mg make the gains so much better. Because I did make insane gains this 14 week cycle at 600mg: 185lbs > 221lbs, squat went from 385 to 455.
Looks like the gains were much better then mate with the higher dose, the Free Test must be making a difference and not just total test. In all honesty that's why beginner cycles normally start at 500mg because thats your first good level of test. If you are seeking strength gains then trying to use as little testosterone as possible is pointless, everybody knows that running higher Test is going to give you better levels of strength. In bodybuilding it is a little different as guys are more bothered about looks and being leaner, but in the strength game all that matters is what you lift. If you did that well on just Test, then add in some Anavar next time or low level Masteron. It sounds like you are still at the level where no matter what you add in you will make good strength progress Bro!!
The answer will always be do the lowest dose test (or any AAS) that gets you the gains you desire. Caveat being as long as your training is hard, diet is great, and your expectations are reasonable. More often than not folks are running more gear than they truly need. So if you get what you want on 250/wk with all those other things in check, then 100% run 250/wk. Hell even if 600/wk test gets you like 10% more of everything then it’s not worth it vs the 250/wk. The diminishing returns is too extreme to make it worth it.
I get better results just taking small amounts of the right mixture of compounds.
Test HGH and IGF LR3 will put more muscle on me that grams and grams of different compounds
Yup. Finding that right combo will get you in a “whole is greater than the sum of the parts” scenario. And that’s the golden ticket
My best Cycle was 600 mgs of test and 4 iu of HGH. When I was on that cycle my wife was 9 months pregnant and we were at the beach. We walked by this group of about 6 teenagers and I heard one of them say. Yo son. That white niggga that just walked by was jacked af. That made Me good af. Had me smiling the rest of the day flexing lol.
Great advice. This is my thinking as well mate. Will update when I retest my blood when I drop to a cruise in a few weeks.
Alot of folks say it's the free test that only matters but I think total testosterone is important as well. Yes most testosterone is bound up but some testosterone of that total is weakly bound. That's just my opinion. It's a back and forth debate really. But yes I see a bit more of free testosterone with your higher dose.
So the estrogen conversion aspect seem good or normal but maybe you're converting more of your test to DHT. And what are you shbg levels at those certain doses?
This is good thinking maybe the DHT and SHBG is where the extra testosterone goes. Unfortunately I don't have the bloodwork for those. The only time I had SHBG tested was 9-27-23 when I was at 250mg test dose and my SHBG value was 20.3 which is in the normal range. My total test was 2204 for that specific date.
Honestly I'm clueless man. Never seen this type of thing before. Keep us updated though because this is interesting.
EDIT: In your case just looks like a good case of diminishing returns with increased test dose.
Going to get bloodwork when I drop to a cruise and update. What I want to know the most is if next cycle I should just do 250mg and get the same gains. This cycle I did a "dirty bulk" and while a lot of it was fat, I went form 185lbs to 221lbs (this morning) in 14 weeks. Squat went up from 385 to 455. So 600mg is definitely working.
But If i can get the same results using a lower dose, I can see this being more beneficial in the long run. Just cycling 250mg and making mad gains would be the dream for me. I have no interest in exploring other compounds besides test.
If i decide to do a 250mg cycle next time i'd probably just throw in some Provirion to free up more free test and theoretically it would yield the same values as a 600mg cycle. May not even need AI if I use the Provirion next cycle. This could be the way to go long term.
The only way to know is to try and cycle with that lower dose like you mentioned. If you're comfortable with those gains then no need to bump up dosages. Don't make this too complicated for yourself now lol. Free test is a bit higher with higher dose.
You’re right bro. I may be overthinking it. Will probably try this in the fall next bulk and just see. In the end of the day it’s a marathon not a sprint. So if I make less gains than expected then at least that will answer my question. If I make stellar gains then fuck yeah. Either way like you said, the only way is I have to try and find out. Worst case scenario I make less gains than expected.
Wish I could pin 200mg/week and get a score like that. Good luck man
Ok this a bit strange. Possibly overdosed. Normally 200mg/wk isn't going to score you that high. And a dose of 200mg vs 600mg/wk would or should result in a different score.
What happened to your avatar?
Someone stole my identity!
It is strange, I cruised for a period of 4 months between August-November and used multiple vials. Everything has been from the same source. So really can't be an overdosed vial.
Could it be that I'm just a hyper responder at low doses but my body applies diminishing results at higher doses? I can't think of any reason why this is happening. I was expecting 4000+ test levels at 600mg/week but no, my levels are essentially the same as 189/week. Only difference is free test by a minimal margin. Aromatization is way less on 189/week, as I only needed about 0.50 ai to get e2 on check while having those elevated test levels. At 600mg I needed 1.17 ai with the same test levels. So this makes me think that after a certain dose my body just converts the testosterone to other shit.
The question remains, should I just cycle at 250mg test since I essentially have the same test levels as 600mg, or do I still get better anabolism at 600mg due to other spikes in other hormones besides testosterone?
This is probably one of the strangest things I've seen on this forum so far. Not sure about seeing levels at 4000 but definitely 3000 or a bit more. And it does look like diminishing returns at higher dosages for you. I hope standard protocol was done for these tests. Just trying to cover all the bases.
Standard protocol was followed. I've always pinned every day and dosed AI every day as well.
Wonder if other people can chime in because this has been strange as fuck. My thinking is after 300mg I get diminishing results and my body just converts the extra test to other shit. I will drop to a cruise in a few weeks back down to 200mg just to test if my test levels are still in the 2000s.
My biggest question being if that's the case, should I just cycle at 250mg from now on instead of cycling at 600mg?
When I said standard protocol I meant the folks doing the blood testing, not you, but usually they do a good job of that. From the looks of it you would think you could cycle with 250mg versus higher dose because of same score but I honestly can't give you that answer nor can anyone else. You can start cycle with 250mg/wk and go from there. Play it by the ear. A score of 2000plus ng should be sufficient.
Are you on your period
Nah just changed AI source recently and trying to adjust dose . Previous AI was stronger apparently