posted Tue, 11/27/2012 - 16:00
1770
+ 1 1st Cycle Test - Is HCG needed??
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Hey boys
Stats:
28yr
183cm - 6ft
95kg - 210 lbs
13-15% bf
Training 10 years
Looking at my first cycle; Test P 10 weeks or Test E 12 weeks (depending on access).
Dosage would be either 150mg eod Test P or 500mg Test (250 x 2) per week.
Aromasin on hand for cycle and to use in PCT. Plus full nolva 40/40/20/20 PCT.
Is HCG a necessary addition during cycle (say 2 x 250ui per week). I have seen mixed opinions on whether it is necessary/recommended/not recommended.
Would like some input from those in the know.
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You will recover faster post cycle if you keep the testes functioning on cycle, faster recovery means you keep more of your gains.
750iu-1000iu p/w would be good, this is around the equivalent of how much LH your body produces naturally and will not damage the leydig cells, but you will feel a hell of a lot better post cycle.
Ppl just don't realise how much benefit HCG has, it's all to do with the increase in pregnenolone because it's a precursor to other steroid hormones like androstenedione and DHEA.
750-1000ui seems a little over the top though. I thought that type of dosage was for those entering PCT who had not run in during the entire cycle.
5000iu per week is the recommeded blast protocol for the 4 weeks leading up to PCT if you haven't ran it on cycle.
750-1000iu is equilivant to what the body produces naturally.
This is key because it keeps the testes functioning without any damage to the leydig cells.
What does damage leydig cells is using it too often because hCG is bi-phasic and after a shot of hCG the leydig cells become refractory to further stimulation for up to 96hrs.
This was unknown until a couple of years ago, thats why you still see old protocols from the likes of Potratz advocating EOD or ED dosing to try and mimic the bodies own pulsatile secretion, this is now outdated.
I have used this protocol (recommended in a 2010 study by the endocrinology society)for 2 years and so have many of my clients who now use the same protocol, every single one of them say how much better they feel and how much easier PCT was, try it, i personally guarantee you will notice a profound difference and will never use any other protocol again.
Not to be thick, but rather thorough. Your advocating once a week dosing (or every 5-7 day dosing) rather than 2x a week, throughout cycle. I have seen a study saying 250ui twice a week maintained T levels (I think it was even above baseline), however there was no discussion of damage to the leydig cells. Anything higher though seems to less effective.
250ui every 5 days would seem to me (with absolutely no experience whatsoever) to overcome the refractory period, without posing any issue leydig cell damage. The goal is only to maintain function, not overstimulate. I have always been one to underdose rather than the opposite. Any thoughts? I understand you are speaking from a wealth of experience, and I am always trying to expand mine.
2 x 500iu shots E4D is fine if you would rather do that than do it all in one shot.
Iv'e had guys try 500iu once weekly or 250iu twice weekly and still they suffered some testicular atrophy, not saying that you will, 500iu p/w whichever way you split it just doesnt seem to do the job.
Maybe try your cycle with 500iu weekly and see how you get on if you would feel more comfortable with that dose, thats the only way to find out how you respond personally.
All i'm really saying is i would err on the side of caution and use the amount that you produce naturally.
Using too much would be very hard to do anyway, there is one single study (lancet if i remember correctly) that showed a 10,000iu shot saturated the leydig cells for 96hrs.
No point at all mate just a waste of money tbh unless your coming off a very long cycle or coming of blast and cruising. doing hcg alot and in high amounts can be very bad as it can damage the cells in the testis and do way more harm than good.if using test prop 100mgs EoD is enough i came off a cycle of 8 weeks of that and after pct of only novla lost only 5pounds. as long as you train hard have a very good diet and get enough rest ul grow very easy. but test E/C or even sus would be easyer as you will only need 2 shots a week. nolva be enough a 20mg throughout pct but thats up to you mate. also take it before you go to bed. if using test prop wait 3-4 days after last shot to start pct if test E or C wait about 2 weeks and sus about 18 days or so after last shot
You won't need the hcg.. If you wanna use it well it's not a big deal but you don't need it for this kinda cycle.. The prop is mehh, thing is you have virgin muscles and prop needs to be pinned ED for cycle purposes so you may in up in a lot of unneeded pain if you take the prop route. I'd say rotate glutes, delts, quads to break them in for future cycles with shorter esters.. it''l make life easier on you. If you really wanna give prop a try.. Tapering with prop at the end of the cycle before pct makes the crash not as bad.. For instance going from 500mg of test to 0 in a week= nasty crash.. But with a taper you lower the test dose every day until you hit zero and start the pct 3 days after. Also towards the end of the cycle your muscles may be able to handle prop for a taper
Well honestly if you dont mind the frequent pinning n pip (which i doubt you wont) prop is ok for first run since its only testosterone, but for sure follow what dbag said about Ai and Standard PCT.
No1not needed but wont hurt
Anongood advice from both below. take it, run with it, and be patient. you will not be disappointed in the long run.
Thanx for the stats and all relevant info.!! Plus 1 just for that!!
NOW:
1st cycle SHOULD be 500mg Test E(2 pins/wk. @ 250mgs), test P is too much pinning for a first time user and can get overbearing.
AI on hand just in case, aromasin is good. I like it because it is a suicide inhibitor, as it latches onto the estro and "kills" it whereas adex can cause estro rebound when it's half-life diminishes. HCG is NOT necessary as with a good PCT, you should recover just fine. HCG is more for longer, heavier cycles and/or harder shutdown compounds.
SO 1st cycle is this:
Wk. 1-12 Test E 500mg/wk.
Wks. 3-14 Aromasin (probably 12.5mg ED)
PCT starts day 15 AFTER last pin for 4 weeks(28 days),
Clomid 100/100/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20
AND can continue aromasin throughout PCT at 6.25 mgs ED, as 'fast' said..go find cdaddy/GS/zewi's pct protocol!!
Thanks for the input I appreciate it. I do not have a needle phobia as I have had to previously do eod IM injections for 2 months after I got a nasty parasite travelling.
If I can get Test E I will definitely go down that route. But I see no reason to avoid Prop.
Thanks for the HCG and PCT input.
you could always do a prop taper between the end of your test E cycle and PCT. I am a big fan of that...avoid the crash and all coming off-cycle, PLUS it gets your muscles used to pinning ED or EOD, as well as honing your pinning technique.
certain props can really give a first time user some discomfort...if you're gonna go prop at ANY point, I would also warm the vials before you draw and pin, makes a BIG difference in getting PIP.
Mate can you point me in the direction of info regarding Test Prop tapering at the end of a Test E cycle. I have seen a lot of stuff on the pro and cons of front loading a Test E cycle with Prop, but I can find any stuff worthwhile on back end use of Test Prop. My guess is because the Test Prop drops quicker where Test E would, over a greater time cause a drop in serum T levels.
I guess I would be interested in the advantages of using Test Prop at the back end of cycle and whether it promotes the retention of any cycle gains over just using Test E all the way through. Thanks in advance
Yeah...it's quite easy actually...see that 'Google Custom Search bar up here on the right? See what you find there...
...BUT, it is also quite easy to say that you use prop ED or EOD at 100-150mg's for the few weeks between your last LONG ester shot and 3 days before PCT. I always start the prop the same day I "WOULD HAVE" given myself another long ester shot...understand? So basically, I start the prop 3.5 days after my last long ester shot. I prefer ED at 100mgs until 3 days before start of my PCT. The advantage to using test prop as a taper is that you are still kinda riding that 'cycle high' while you are waiting for the long esters to clear your system...not so much of drop off in hormone levels, and a shock to your system...might help keep your body from drifting into a catabolic state, and like you said retain some more strength/muscle gains.
SO...really you are still using Test E all the way thru your cycle, BUT you are using prop as a "stabilizer" before PCT...I wouldn't do it any other way personally
No prop first cycle. You'll hate it. Wheres yoyr clomid? Whats clomid do? Better research cdaddy/gs pct.
Thanks mate. I do know a fair bit about clomid - and there a many school's of thought on PCT, although adaptions of Scully's method seem to be the norm around here, which I guess says a lot about its effectiveness.
I guess my biggest worry about using high dose clomid is its effects to decrease pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (studies show after 10 days.
Nolva is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA is concerned. This is especially important when looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolva as well.
However I will keep reading and researching. The fact is that Scully's PCT and others like it look to be overwhelmingly successful for the majority of good blokes in this board.