+ 18 Toremifene PCT (to answer all those questions)
----THIS PCT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE-----
i get at least 3 or more PM's a week about me doing a torem PCT. ive realized that these questions are based on a post i have about me doing a torem PCT, with out clomid. so i think i am going to tackle this question now for the masses.
I had tried to run clomid on several occasions with nolva. i had experienced all the the worse sides clomid had to offer. i even tried going with a lower dose to no avail. i was paranoid, irritable, depressed, my vision was awful, i had no appetite, and suffered horrid nausea after my clomid dose. I decided it was time to give up on the clomid. I was having some issues with some gyno from rebound. so i wanted to research something new to try. i came across torem. torem was originally designed to block estrogen in tissue for female cancer patients. torem significantly raised their LH and FSH levels while blocking estrogenic tissue effects. some tests suggested that it raised LH and FSH more effectively than clomid or nolva and even combined. also i wasnt a fan of HCG and the prolonged use it needed on cycle. so i thought this might also be a viable option for testicular atrophy and boosting on cycle libido from time to time. so my first time i tried torem was on cycle, a particularly heavy cycle of tren, test and mast, and within 90 minutes of 25mg of torem, my testicals dropped were looking great and i was really horny. i felt great. my testicals stayed normal for almost 4 days before they began to atrophy again. i dont recommend this as something to do regularly . i only do this when im really shut down and not quite feeling the libido drive my woman is used to my testicals being atrophied so atrophy isnt much of a worry for me. i had such great success with this, i decided after a little more research where i had seen a few other aas users said it was a good alternative to clomid for the same exact reasons i found during research, and decided to give a try during PCT. most people whove read my posts know my stand on HCG. i believe its only useful use is as a PCT kicker, a pct kicker typically is ran the last 10 days of cycle up till the day PCT starts, at 250-500iu week. so my first torem PCT consisted of this.
HCG at 250iu 3 times a week till pct
toremifene 100/100/50/50
nolva 40/40/40/40
i ran aromasin and prami through PCT also (this was edited based on new information from others who have tried)
the results were amazing, i felt great, sex drive was amazing, appetite was amazing, energy never diminished. my emotional well being was fantastic too. overall it was the best PCT i had ever done. i feel because of the fantastic appetite and emotional well being it contributed to keeping the gains i did, i kept approximately 90+% of the gains i made. this PCT was ran on a cycle that consisted of test e 600mg week deca 400mg week, dbol 50mg split ed and a anavar taper. i also did a short ester kicker on this cycle of test p and npp for 2 weeks
this was a personal experiment i did on myself because of the poor reaction i had with clomid and how it effected my gains kept. this is a non-traditional PCT, i do not believe this is something for everyone and if you do decide to try this it should be done so cautiously and make sure you have the traditional PCT compounds on hand in the event this isnt sufficient for you. i may have missed something or made a mistake in here somewhere, im rushing to get this done so please feel free to ask any questions or point out my mistakes
another thing id like to point out.
for those that like to run NOR-19's there has been some speculation that nolva may aggravate progesterone issues during pct. so torem is a great alternative to nolva during pct if youve done a nor19 cycle. but these cycles are ran with clomid and toremifene.
i am working on a new post that shows the amounts at which each effect HTPA function, raising LH, FSH and GNRH. most studies relating to these compounds are done on hypogonadal men (men with low testosterone) which in effect is what we do to our selves cycling
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This is gold.
Thanks.
PcushionTorem drastically increases the bodies SHBG production.
Does anyone have a legit torem source they can PM me? Thanks
CENSOREDLABS.COM sell REDACTED
It's GTG FYAH
Great info...IDK if I'll give a try to torem, but this post actually gives me a whole vision how it should be used. Thanks!
Awesome thread but I always thought that Torem is a replacement to the overrated Nolva as it is made for the same purpose but do a better job. Confused how to use almost same compounds and cut out Clomid !!?
Reading this I was hoping for its use during cycle.
I'm reading keeps estrogen from nips, prolactin is lowered and balls kept during a cycle.
Hi did you esperienced libido loss in the normal pct clomid+nolva?
I have this problem, no libido at week 3 of pct, could I insert torem?
Thanks a lot
I thank is just normal for PCT. gotta ride it out.
Very very lucky if this doesn't happen to you I reckon
So is there a benefit of stacking Clomid to Toremifen if I used NOR-19's? At what dosage would you recommend Clomid in this case? And why is Clomid needed?
Hard to find information about this, hope someone can clear this up.
I just finished a 12 week cycle of LGD at 10mgs. Added in epiandro the last 4 weeks. Yes i probably pushed this cycle for way too long. Anyways ive been on my PCT of toremifene for 5 days and I definitely have some sensitivity in my nips and my pecs are like puffy and flabby kind of. Am i just overreacting or is there something i should add to my PCT. Btw i ran Torem at 60 mgs from sunday to tuesday, then i upped it wednesday and today to 90 mgs. Any help would be much appreciated.
hey man, is toremifine/raloxifine ok to use on cycle, for example while running dianabol instead of running nolva ? heard torem is a fair bit stronger. cheers
No, it's not for on cycle and neither is Nolva. Control the estrogen before it gets to your tits
I'm highly interested in your proposed PCT-protocol. I have been blasting and cruising for several years and want to come off entirely. I realize I might have to adjust the protocol somewhat(or simply run it for longer) seeing how my case is different in terms of the duration of HPTA suppression.
One issue though - I cannot source toremifene. I'd highly appreciate if you would point me in the direction of of a source within EU that sells real toremifene.
Thanks for everything in advance!
friend request me and send me a PM, I can help you
Sent a friend request as well, sourcing legit Fareston has been tough lately
IfbbmoeI feel like 40 mg of nolva daily ON top of the torem is kinda overkill for pct for for weeks
Any recommended sources. Doing my own research trying to source a legit company
FR someone who has done it successfully and ask them, you cant talk about sources in open forum
Great post i have done 2 PCTs since my last cycle and i am still shut down. I am thinking of doing a 3rd with torem. Would it be overkill to stack Nolva and Torem? I was thinking Clomid/Novla/Torem. Here is a link to the last bloodwork that i just posted which explains everything.
https://www.eroids.com/pics/body-not-responding-to-pct
Good read. My next pct I'll give it a go.
I think nolva is not needed. Toremifene does the same job, just better. Thats what i Have read around. Toremifene/clomis (If You can stand the side effect) has more sense.
Am I wrong?
From what I've read torem is pretty darn similar to nolva. Since almost all of the torem getting used is research grade I would not trust it alone. Heck I stack my torem with clomid and nolva.
Did the same on last pct just n case worked well for me
This will be my last cycle with deca. Will be switching to Npp. I run low dose for joint lube 200 per week. And it's night and day without it in my cycle. My I have been researching torem. It has a similar chemical structure as nolva. Sister drug for lack of a better term. The question is have experienced or heard of an estrogen rebound when it is used in a Deca or npp for pct?
Would this be a good PCT for someone who is trying to kick start their HPTA after being shutdown for a long time?. What makes this better than clomid/nolva/hcg? Besides lesser sides.
I don't think it's any better for HPTA recovery, and would suggest running the standard restart protocol.
Not everyone gets bad sides from clomid, and you might be fine using it.
Google the name DR Scally, he has some good info on HPTA recovery.
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-post-cycle-therapy/
Hey man great info. After this post it has me thinking. I am about to finish a cycle of test mast and tren too. You felt good kick with torem nolva aromasin and prami. I seen the doses for the nolva n torem but what bout aromasin? Appreciate the info.
aromasin/adex should always be part of the PCT and used through to combat the potential for estrogen rebound, although i didnt cover those here, im sorry, aro should be typically ran at 6.25mg ED or split 2 times a day for better stable blood levels, as the terminal half life is just under 9 hours. but with all anti-e compounds their use, and amount needed should be based on symptoms and need. a good starting place 6.25mg ED for the aro, and adex .50mg EOD
I wonder how or if by using any of this on trt I could benefit. .
good question, im TRT and i use torem, 10mg a day, keep the boys plump and estrogen out of the testes and keeps the leydig cells stimulated and healthier than if i were just completely shut down. also helps keep off the any creeping gyno and stimulates the sex drive.
I am looking to get the wife prego as well so I was going to talk to doc about hcg but untill then I will try the torem
there is a few great posts on here in regards to this, and theyve had success. theyre here in the PCT section. i think one is called my fertility journey
Great news then.. I been on trt now for few months but I have some pharm torem I am going to try incorporating it in and see how it goes..
ive had a hell of a time getting my hands on pharma torem, been stuck mostly with peptide torem, the difference is, oh so amazing.
I think I am going to try 30mg ed split pills in half.. started today
http://www.eroids.com/pics/pharma-necessities
yeah the ones I have are 60mg there called fareston I believe.. Ill show you a link to my pic of it
About to order my first cycle and it'll be 500 mg of Test E for 10 weeks. For PCT 120/90/60/30 of torem and 40/40/40/40 of Nolva. Is this to much for such a light cycle?
Doing a lot of research into my PCT and it's making my head spin. On my first cycle 4weeks of Test E and 2 weeks of Test P. Into my 4th week now. Recommendation for PCT was:Clomid 100/100/50/50
Nolvadex 40/40/20/20
Aromasin 6.25mg EOD for the 1st 14days of PCT and stop
Is this good for the cycle I am on?
I thought that Clomid and Nova had basically the same action and that Clomid had more potential side effects. Why take them at the same time?
Really could use some help!
The cycle you described is pretty light.
How much test are you taking per week?
Are you using aromasin or another AI on cycle?
Why are you cutting it so short? Most 1st cycles run for 12 weeks, and don't really kick in till week 4.
But for that cycle, I bet you could run PCT at half the dose you posted.
Nolva is a womens breast cancer drug, Clomid is a womens fertility drug. They work well together and have a synergistic effect.
Taking 500mg/wk. I was advised to do 6-7 weeks for my first cycle.
500mg a week is proper dose.
I've only done one cycle and did 12 weeks of 500mg a week. It is the duration that is recommended for a first cycle by most of the folks on this forum. PCT was a breeze, and all is back to normal now, 3 months after the cycle.
You may want to post a question about running your cycle longer, for me it seemed like shit was just kicking in good at 6 weeks. I'm happy I went 12 weeks
Jt, don't copy and paste full articles, just post a quick summary and then a link. This is just cluttering up two threads.
Shit sorry got you,much easier that way i just have it saved on phone so ....but ok for next time guys....
Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT
It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by fellow BB may help to clear up some misconceptions.
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but arye still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
BillLumberghjust an update. Ran a tor/tamox PCT(outlined below)- Feeling great 1 month after PCT. ran pharma hgh at 2iu ed and honestly don't feel like I've lost anything. Been dieting the last 5 days- no carbs after 2- starting to see more of this muscle come through. def will drop some poundage but even if I do I'm at least as lean as I was before cycle and 15lbs heavier 1 month after PCT.
I'm doing similar pct its just torem120 1-2 weeks 3-4 weeks 40mg Nova ed 40mg and plan using hcg 250ius 2week plus I have caber on hand and aromasin too
RustyhookerMany dudes switched out nolva for torem in a nor cycle but they ran torem/clomid. Your studies online and in person shows torem over clomid?