Needed info on First PCT
Ok so I have been doing some research on what to include for my PCT. What I have aqquired so far is HCG and Nolvadex are the best way to go. I also read that Clomid is pretty much the same as Nolvadex at higher dosages. My question is what my PCT should be. I have been running for about 10 months now and will be finishing at 11. I have been cruising then blasting every 2.5 months or so. My ending cycle is as follows:
Month 1- 500mg Sust eod (bridge)
50mg dbol ed starting 3rd week
Month 2- 50mg dbol ed
500mg Sust eod for two weeks (ending bridge)
400mg Test E 2x week
500mg EQ 2X week
Month 3- 50mg dbol eod for first 2 weeks
400mg Test E 2x week
500mg EQ 2x week
Month 4- 400mg Test E 2x week for first 2 weeks
500mg EQ 2x week for first 2 weeks
Before this last blast I have done 2 other stacks. Including Sust 350, Deca 300, Test E 350, and some dbol here and there . I can say that I have found the perfect combination to suit my needs with this last bit. But in order to stay safe I need to PCT. If anyone could help me with some information regarding what pct (including dosages) I should take I would greatly appreciate it!
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may i tell you a solution from my experience?
maybe it is too late but other mates could get in simmiliar situation.
you should taper down before pct. my english is sadly weak but i will try to explain quickly.
everything i tell know is for competitors or mates who have done this long cycle unintentionally. no remommendation for beginners.
well, i will not teach you at this point about your cycle bro. it is allready past and you finished.
first you will need testo-p and start to taper slowly out. you will need to do this not only because of pct.... there are tons of other reasos. for example your menthality. people forget depressions. if you stop cycle after 10 month from 60 to 0 like this, you will have a lot problems. you will loose in a few month every pound of gain. further you will feel bad in different reasons. but you can soften this. thats what every competitor needs to do when he stop his cycle or bridge after injuries and so on.
so taper out with testo- p beginning 10 days after last testo-e. ( did i understand correct, you took testo at 800mg/week total?)
1. week 100mg ed testo.p
2. week 50mg ed testo.p
3. week 50mg eod testo.p
two days after last pin of testo.p
start 1500iu hcg initial
3 days later onother 750-1500iu
3 days later another 750-1500iu
you should start nolva and clomid 2 days before first hcg injection.
you also should do nolva and clomid with 1 week tapering out and the end of standard pct. so total 5 weeks pct not 4.
than you wait 2-3 weeks after last day of pct and go for a bloodwork. if you have reached a minimum tollarable endo level you can be happy and thats it for the next 10 better 12 month. if your level is under the minimum reference you will need to do combined hcg and clomid again for 2 or 3 weeks depending on your bloodwork results. sure, after that secound pct you need another bloodwork. i highly recommend the bloodworks. they will give you the information you need. otherwise you can not know if pct was right or not.
kindly regards
njs
This is terrible advice -
a little bit more details and maybe we can do a discuss about it? isnt this the sense of such community? why do you think its terrible? i am working since 20 years with this system and my bloodwoorks and my success is proving me its working.
i feel more and more uncomfortable by writing here
... do i need to be affraid by every post... that someone take karma because he has a different idea? is that the system? if yes... im wrong here!
Ok... + for discussion
But hopefully you will reconsider your advice. ... i will post thoughts below
Ok... so....
1. man asks for pct advice. You give him immediate prop taper cycle advice... stick your recommendation into a steroid calc and see what that does to his blood levels
2. You advise eod for prop in the 3 week cycle
3. You advise a hcg protocol which has absolutely ridiculously high levels of hcg which will cause estrogen issues in a depleted state
4. The timing and duration of the hcg... blast.... is not good... too short and starts too late... again shouldnt be a blast
5. No mention of.loading and dosing for nolv or clomid
6. Taper out nolv? No need, just turn clomid off and continue nolv
7. than you wait 2-3 weeks after last day of pct and go for a bloodwork. - silly... what about pct med half life?
8. If you have reached a minimum tollarable endo level you can be happy -- Nope, never... at least particularly for those with low testo or low estro issues... bad advice
9. if your level is under the minimum reference you will need to do combined hcg and clomid again for 2 or 3 weeks - You dont need to combine them per sé. At this stage for a restart, once hcg restores size/function it can be discontinued and thrn clomid can be run. This is diffetent to pct in a way and both are monotherapy in a way for seperate aspects of hypogonadism
Finally, the main reason i gave you karma back is because you said bloods are needed to know if you have recovered or not.
Dont worry about karma, it comes it goes, your contributions will see the net balance grow
ok... thats why i came into this community. thanks for detailed explaining your thoughts. some of them change my thinking. i am not a stubborn head and always ready to rethink.
i hope i can pass the language barrier to explain my thought by answering to your points. i understood everything you wrote but maybe you did not understand me 100%. but that is payed to my weak english. hard to learn in short time. sorry for that. so...
the tapering... if that is the correct word for my thoughts... what i want to say is, in my opinion it is a part of pct practically or rather it is the preparation for pct to tapper the aas. if you say why? because... when you consume aas, specially high doses testo, your endocrine issue after the cycle is not your only problem. most mates think only about the endogenic testo but forget the psyche. i hope you can understand me... tapering is bad when you look at a roid calculator...i k ow that. but in my mind, that prob is smaller if you think about psyche. often underrated. so... tapering helps not to crash mentally. bad issue if you are married and have kids or a riskfull job. you go from fast to crush into a wall when you take weeks over weeks androgene aas and than stop. i had that a few times. some do not realize. maybe. some are not effected like that. but i was and i saw many other having same issues.
the dosing art for propionat... same reason like above. personally i had good experiences with that. in any casr mentally clearer and calm.
you say hcg ammount at 750iu (up to 1500) e3d 3 times (10 days incl. halflife)is too high. so i dont know what to say here. i personally think not. what do you think the ammount should be and how long? i tried 500iu for longer time and had not the feeling it was better than 1500iu for about e3d 3 times.
about the hcg timing... ok. i had this discuss in the past. maybe at this point you are right. for me it was ok..bloodworks were good most of the time. i always noticed the impulse and it was a benefit for me like i ment above.
about dosing nolva and clom. i was thinking that the standard procedre for that is clear. next time i can complete.
taper out nolva clom.... you see i am a friend of taking things back slowly. you are right and it is not required but does it harm? there are quiet sensitive people out there using steroids and showing mentally reaction. me included. the first few years no problem. but later on it was.
bloodwork pct halflife. nolvadex has a halflife up to 14 weeks. but this means "up to" and not minimum right?. and if i remember right... thats only the metabolits of tamox with this halflife. so after 3 weeks i thought you can go for it. but aggain i say ok... 4 weeks would be better for stabilization.
about endo level. i am not sure if you understood right or if i told wrong by saying "you can be happy if endo testo is in the ref. area" . with this i wanted to say that... when your bloodwork is near reference or in reference scale/area (dont know how to say it) after pct..., you can be happy because your pct succeedet.
and finaly 9... what is the main fail after/while pct in your mind? i always thought that the problem must be lh, fsh. thats why i said do hcg aggain with clom if bloodwork is not telling you good. i never had to furtunatly.
regards
my brain is boiling, need to return to my actual language;) good night to all readers
Dont overboil! :-)
Yeap i get its your opinion and experience.
However short esters are simply less stable than long. They also suppress faster. Furthermore an eod pinning shedule by its nature is erratic. Compare dissipation curves of enanth and prop. Slide out genrly versus updown updown updown.
I am with you, psyche as you say is extremely important... so a smooth transition could be argued to be best.
HCG - no need for more rhan 250iu x2 or x3 per week. All that is needed is a k8ckstart and trickle to keep the engines running. More will cause a spike in estrogen that cannot be controlled by an ai or serm and can desensitise the person.
Re: nolv clomid... sadly no. People overdose on nolv with no clinical benefit. Dont run it long enough and so on.
Clomid just needs to be switched off but sure.... there is no real reason nolv could not be tapered. However over 20mg of nolv gives no extra benefit.
Pct succeeded if you restore or improve prwvious levels. Under is a problem
I appreciate all the information you have provided. In all honesty I dont know how much of anyones advice I can put to good use. Karma or not. There are a lot of people on this site with experience that i need to pay attention to but in reality this is still the internet and no matter what there will always be conflicting ideas and opinions that will raise questions on all sides. I definitely am learning a ton and will continue to do so daily. I am at a stand still with all the different responses to this post so I made an appt. with my PCP to get blood work done. I will be honest about my cycle then tell my Dr. that I want to get off and hopefully they will refer me to a urologist or endo for an exact plan on what to do.
Yep, you said it man. We are all just text on a screen.
99.99% of pct advice online is almost purely b.s. and sadly eroids is no different, so I am really glad you are sceptical. Continue to research but learn about the compounds and what they actually do in the body and from credible science based sources. Be wary of pcp and endo... many are no better or even less informed than the internet bro... but hopefully you find a good one experienced with such things. No experience = no bueno.
If you would like to know where the modern online pct came from then research former Dr. Michael Scally. But research his treatment publications (from med/endo journals not forums). He was basically revoked for perfecting the HPGA restart by using clomid/nolv/hcg for non intended purposes. His actual treatment protocols that have been documented and published in endo journals are where you will find the truth, rather than the usual parroted cookie cutter incorrect PCT cycles listed everywhere online.
Thanks for the lead brother. Started reading some of his bio and research. Judging on his level of experience from running AAS to treating patients who used them this guy knows his shit. Definitely going to continue reading everything I can written by Dr. Scally.
As far as the PCP and endo, you're absolutely right. However, I have been informed of a urologist who specializes in this particular subject and he is super close to where I live. Down side is I have to get a referral from my PCP. It has also been about 5 years since I have seen a Dr. The last time was just for a physical relating to a job, so I forget how it works with referals. Hopefully I dont get some bitch for a doctor. Did I mention she is female?
Haha
Well look I gotta be honest, sometimes the ladies will 'get it' faster when it comes to hormones than male docs. Women deal with fluctuations etc so regularly they can understand.
Fingers crossed. Sounds like that referral is gold. Happy for you man! Keep us updated as to how you get on!
Many thanks for your positive thoughts brother! Your absolutely right. Women do deal with fluctuations. Even more so during pregnancy. Hopefully this doc pooped out a small human or two haha. I will definitely keep you guys updated. Happy Thanksgiving!!
Can anyone explain to me why everyone is saying "his endocrine is fried" etc etc? Most pros are on heavy ass cycles 9 months of the year and clean out for 2-3 months, jump straight back on and rinse and repeat for a decade minimum.
I think people forget how resilient the body is! Those doses aren't even that high!!! Doesn't seem to go above 1.4 gram of gear a week apart from one month were it's 1.8, from what I can read.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You read wrong. He spends plenty of time at 2350mg
Also: http://www.renalandurologynews.com/aua-2016-misc-urinary-problems/mortality-rate-higher-among-bodybuilders/article/495038
Pro bodybuilders sacrifice their hpga. Anyone who spends too long switched on can at a minimum damage its function but at worst case can 'fry' it to the point of creating permanent primary and/or 2ndary hypogonadism
.
If I am reading this correctly, you started out with 2 grams a week of Sust. for for first month? Your dosages and time on is very disturbing. Totally agree with Markwa. Time for bloods and a trip to your endo doctor. That and stop watching all those Bostin Loyd videos.
Bostin Loyd? Never heard of him. I started out with dbol 40 mg ed for a month. Then Sust 350 e3d for 2.5 month. Then Test E 350 and Deca 300 e3d for 2.5 month. Then I started this last stack I am on now after bridging with Sust 350 at .7cc e3d for 6 weeks. My apologies. I should have clarified that in the post.
With a little research you can easily find what you'd need for pct , dosages etc.
Using that much gear for 11months is very bad for your health.
You have been on a cycle for 11 months. I am thinking you may have to go see an endo for real help because there is a pretty good chance you have likely fried your HPTA being on so long. You are going to need some serious help to try and reboot. I would look into the Scally power PCT protocol but it would probably be in your best interest to just get under the care of an endo right away for this whole process.
Do you think he should try to pct on his own 1st, get bloodwork done and if not restarted or low then see an endo?
If it was me, I would be stopping the cycle immediately and planning out a power PCT for the next 6wks once my system is clear of anabolics and keep the endo on speed dial. Every day longer continuing cycle after being on this long already is just digging the hole deeper every day. The window of opportunity to recover is becoming very small now. Advantage of getting the doc involved from the get go is to make sure PCT products are legit and can monitor with regular bloodwork and guidance.
I appreciate the info. How would you suggest I approach this with the PCP In order to get a referral? I can't imagine they would just do it upon request.
When you PCP pulls bloodwork and sees your T levels and LH/FSH in the tank, he'll turn you over to an endo or Urologist. Depending on how comfortable you are talking with your PCP, you could tell him how long you have been on a cycle for and now you want to get off and are worried about your HPTA and need help to try and recover.
Ok thanks again. I really appreciate the heads up. I've been stewing over this for a while now on what to do. I was under the impression that cruise and blast was not that big of a deal health wise. Given the info you have provided I have been able to do some deeper research and I think your absolutely right.
Completely agree with everything you say! I was just curious if you thought he should try an attempt at coming off on his own before involving the dr but youre right. Speak the him now, and get the ball rolling so when you do need to get in you can. Thanks!
Thanks for the info! Should I see my PCP first or just go straight into endo?
You will likely need an referal from you PCP so I would set that appt. up first. Hopefully it works out for you.
Heard that! Probably going to be trt from now on, but I would definitely go to dr and get checked
Thanks for the response! trt?
Testosterone replacement therapy.... if you're endocrine system if screwed from the length of time and amount of compounds you ran,
Hope you're ok