+ 2 HCG as a bridge for/into PCT
So, I know this has been asked many times in the past, & I just read Giardap’s post from 2018 about it, which is thorough & fantastic. The science on HCG use is always evolving, so I thought I’d throw this out to the community.
I don’t use it on cycle, although many swear that’s key to a fast and complete HPTA recovery. I’m curious how successful those are that use it as a bridge between cycle & PCT.
What dosing and frequency work best for you?
When do you start HCG & how far into PCT do you use it?
What are your thoughts on desensitization?
I know there are many strong feelings here about this, and my real goal here is to hear what works for those that choose to use it & to sift through all of the info (there is SO much information out there that is contradictory & claims to be irrefutable).
And yes, it have used the search bar, and read what’s been offered here, already.
Thank you friends.
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Great post by BrainsNGainz.
I think it is also worth mentioning the interaction between hCG and the CYP 450 enzyme, it's well worth checking the pharmacokinetics of hCG in relation to CYP 450. For those that don't know it is extremely important and very beneficial, just one more reason to use hCG on cycle. In fact, here is an article I wrote a few years ago on this very subject.
The CYP450 (cytochrome P450) enzyme system is a key pathway for drug metabolism.
Many lipophilic drugs must undergo biotransformation to more hydrophilic compounds to be excreted from the body.
The majority of drugs undergo phase I metabolism (e.g., oxidation, reduction) by CYP450 enzymes,
this is especially indicative of anabolic androgenic steroids and endogenous steroid hormones.
We all know the importance of incorporating hCG into our cycle, this is just another good reason to use hCG.
In laymans terms hCG increases the dynamics of CYP450 which in turn increases the rate at which drugs can be metabolized,
which in turn increases protein dynamics.
Basically by the action of hCG on P450 dynamics it also increases pregnenolone which
is the precursor for all other steroid hormones and has many benefits,
one of which is that it serves to keep/restore a natural hormonal balance within this key pathway even if the HPTA is suppressed,
it also has energizing, anti-stress benefits, elevates mood through the raising of NDMA activity and reduces excess Cortisol,
so if we can increase this steroid hormone with the use of hCG, we should.
Agree with @giardap
From a biological pathways perspective it doesn't make much sense to use HCG in PCT. The idea of PCT is to reactivate the brain's secretion of LH/FSH which reach the testes and cause endogenous testosterone & sperm production. By using HCG you're using it as a substitute for LH which increases testosterone & estrogen (via aromatase increase) and thus feeding the negative feedback loop which you are trying to reverse, simply prolonging the process of restarting the system until you cut out the HCG. To restart the system what we want is minimal signaling of circulating androgens/estrogens in the brain, which is assisted with the common SERM PCT drugs, then the brain decides "shit we need more hormones!" and starts sending LH/FSH to get the process going.
HCG on cycle however has a host of benefits by keeping testes healthy/active and preventing atrophy, I think of it the same way as taking liver support supplements while on oral steroids -- better to keep the organ healthy than do damage to it and try to fix it later. Plus it's a great way to get a boost to testosterone ontop of whatever you're injecting -- On my recent bloodwork of 360mg/week with 500-750iU HCG/week my T was ~3200, which is higher than most guys on 500mg (not bragging here, pointing out benefits of keeping endogenous test active). Also, HCG causes an acute spike in Aromatase production which can be utilized to elevate estrogen on cycles which are using substances that inhibit aromatase/decrease estrogen, thus preventing an E2 crash.
Considering how 1 vial of 5000iU used at 500iu/week lasts you 10 weeks and HCG is dirt cheap, I dont' see any reason why it can't be used every cycle (maybe some with more experience have their own opinion on when it should/shouldn't be used). I started it 2 weeks into Test-E and run until the end, inject the day before Test injections so that the acute test/aromatase boost is finished before the Test-E spike kicks in, but the timing probably isn't super critical.
That’s makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the response. I think that’s how I’ll approach my future cycles. Thanks man
Proper pct uses hcg long before actual pct to prove 1 thing only; your balls can work (no homo).
You then let it clear, then start pct.
The 2 weeks thing is bullshit. While you will reinflate etc, bit you also spike test, spike estrogen - meaning your body is constantly in flux.... whereas balance is what the body needs to find, to allow natural systems to kick in.
Alright. So, you’re saying that using HCG simply lets us know that we can regain some testicular function before going into PCT, and that it doesn’t help with resensitization or anything else some claim? I understand that using is during PCT seems to defeat the purpose of the process since it introduces test through forced production.
Thanks for the help man
It's a little bit more complicated, but yep, it is, for all intents and purposes, synthetic lh (and fsh to a degree), so, it acts as if the body was switched into testosterone creation mode (bypasses the feedback loop). It reinflates cells that atrophy (as much as possible, but some cells die and some don't come back whereas atrophied cells may not come back fully).
The true point tho, is that the body still needs to come back down from the hcg induced spike in test/estrogen to a point where the feedback loop tells the body (starting at the brain) that it is go time to release the hormones that tell the gland that release actually lh, to get going.
This is the critical thing to understand... until the body goes low, it won't activate.
Think of the timeline...
On cycle = test high, body won't create test
Shed excess testo and go low: now we can activate the body
It's that simple
But most people read the parroted BS that says:
2 weeks before last pin take hcg (spikes test higher)
2 weeks after last pin start pct (still high test, serm won't work properly)
Take serms for 4 weeks (body maybe, maybe now is only ready to start serms)
People pretty much finish pct before they need to start.
Proper pct: drain your system, let it start again
Optimise your chances by: keeping balls inflated (no homo) on cycle, or reinflate, let h g drain, allow a month to drain and go low, then serm, drain serm, then let body find new norm
That takes along time. 12 weeks for nolv to clear out, for example, less for clomid. Then the body does its thing. You can help it with some natural'ish things (I've a post in over 40's about bumping testo)
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks man. I completely agree about the nonsense parroting of PCT timelines and that most begin PCT far too early to be useful. It seems people hear 2 week bridge and totally ignore the half lives of the compounds they’re using.
Would you run HCG up until PCT begins? Specifically, would you run HCG on cycle (as you suggested above) & then continue to run it past your last injection of AAS given the half life of HCG is vastly shorter than pretty much all AAS esters (and stop the HCG a few days before PCT begins)?
I always run hcg on cycles that impact me. But I promise you, it keeps testo levels up there, you want it cleared well ahead of pct. Pct only works optimally if your system is cleared out.
If you want a recommendation, it's let shot and hcg clear for at least 6 weeks before starting pct. No bridge, no nothing, clear house, get low.
P.S. looks like someone pussynegged u above
Looks
^^This^^
A very well written, up-to-date, detailed response.
RustyhookerMy pct forum covers hcg. Yes the 2 weeks prior to pct works
Too bad all your forums are just questions for items posted clearly. Silver spoon much?
Rusty, you are often the first to respond, and boy are your responses predictable.
So, let me clarify - unless one is exclusively using short esters (which I believe most are not), there should be a much longer period between last injection & the start of PCT. For instance; I’m running test C, so I’ll need close to 5 weeks. So 2 weeks isn’t an appropriate bridge. In fact, your lofty answer above insinuates that everyone should begin PCT 2 weeks after their cycle. That’s just poor guidance. Also, have you considered that some of us don’t think as highly of your advice as you do? “Click on my avatar and follow my forum posts” is kind of your go to answer, isn’t it? Well, I feel that you certainly have much to offer the community, but I sure don’t believe that all of your advice is nearly as valuable as you do. That’s why I put it out to the community at large, not addressed to you. Lastly, as stated above, the science of PCT and specifically HCG has change much over the past few years. The cumulative knowledge & experience available here is what I’m after. And, I guess it’s worth mentioning that this is more of a discussion, not a coaching session. I’m not looking to have my PCT laid out for me, I’m curious what others feel, how they use it and what their results have been. That is one of the most valuable aspects of an open forum, I believe.
I’m pleased I could give you an opportunity to feel useful.
RustyhookerThats nice since cyp is dead and gone in 2 weeks. But go lose those gaind...im ok with that. Party on!
After six-weeks just to plateau it'll take a few weeks to get back to normal, a week or so more to get to low normal. Why waste PCT when you're in normal range? Wait until you're low normal. PCT will start kicking in just as you start falling below normal.
With an 8 day half-life? At the levels of saturation reached in a 16 week cycle, you think that it would deplete in 14 days? Pretty simple math shows that after 16 days (2 half lives) there is roughly 25% left, right? And although the comparison isn’t completely mirrored, why would it take about 5 weeks to go from baseline to stable blood saturation when beginning a cycle and 2 weeks to completely deplete? As I said above, the science evolves, even if you won’t.