+ 4 Daily dosing of Aromasin - is this in fact the right approach - well it depends
So I’ve been doing some mid cycle blood work and as the results have been tricking in I have noticed a few rather strange results that got me thinking.
First in was some pretty poor lipid numbers. Which was weird as I am currently running injectables (500mg DHB Cyp/100mg Test E per week) only with some HCG (1500IU twice per week). No orals, no provi and I initially had high estro so I added 12.5mg of Aro per day to manage this. I chose Aro as i am running GH and I don’t want my AI to impact liver conversion of IGF-1 and I am a super responder to adex. I don’t normally use an AI as I don’t need it but the high doses of HCG are causing the high estro so I decide I better.
Fastworward 6 weeks and current blood work result start flowing in and all well except very low HDL (very unusual for me on injectables only) and rising LDL and then today a crashed estrogen result. So this gets me wondering on researching and looking as some options. I first thought the aro may be adex and hence the estro crash. It’s UGL primarily because the Pharma aro tabs are a bitch to accurately cut and dose but I researched further and I am now staring to believe the aro is legit but the commonly held belief that aro needs to be dosed daily is in fact incorrect in most cases especially when used for estrogen control.
We have always preached daily aro or even twice daily aro based on the 8.5 hour half life in men but this is only half of the story. The missing piece is the duration of the estrogen suppression. Here are the facts:
-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)
So you can clearly see how easy it is to crash estro with a daily dosing protocol of aro even at doses well below 25mg per day. It also shows the importance of blood work in dialling in the correct dose of any AI which we preach again and again. In my case I’m pulling back my dose. Dropping the aro for the next 7 days then reintroducing at 12.5mg three times per week and retesting 2 weeks later. Of course I’d yoire trying to crash estro say pre competition then daily dosing is the way to go.
Oh and why is this this relevant for my lipid issues. Well probably not much other than some anecdotal commentary about low estrogen causing lipid issues but it’s likely something specific to the DHB and it’s effect on me. I’ll be further supplementing and testing of course to make sure I’m trending right again.
Here is the science stuff - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14671195/
Good article which summarised this all nicely and where I borrowed the stats above from - http://www.allthingsmale.com/community/threads/exemestane-aromasin.21337/
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On 500mg test, I dosed 12.5mg eod and my estro was in low normal range. Eod or e3d has always worked for me
Seems like more and more guys are finding lipid issues on DHB
Here you go,
Aromasin has to be dialed in PERIOD. You take it full dose for 7-10 days, then get bloods drawn. Look at your levels and then you either cut back or increase based on it. Doctors had men taking 25mg a day for a month and not a single one crashed their E2.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/aromasin-you...
Thanks Mack. The above post is in my favs and my starting point on this topic. 12.5mg ED for 4 weeks has crashed my estro. Based on what I’m reading with the science it would suggest this dose is too high based on the duration of suppression - per my original post. I’ve spoken to quite a few on here and many have chimed in on the post and it seems the real world experience aligns with this view.
Now I will say my estro was high but not ridiculously high. But it was high enough to cause some water retention and bloat and was contributing to some back pumps hence the decision to add an AI. It was 50.3 pg/ml with upper end of the range here 43.2 (privately done lab tests). Now I don’t know how low it is because my endo pulled these bloods and he uses a different assay and the results have me at <98 pmol/l (range 99 - 192)
So my choices are to drop the dose to 6.25mg ED and retest or to go to 12.5mg 2 or 3 times per week and retest. Based on what I am reading in the scientific research and the fact that aro tabs are a nightmare to cut to get an accurate 6.25mg dose I’m leaning towards the latter. I’ll update here with the outcome following the retest in about 6 week.
I think where everyone gets confused is the term crashed. Crashed means zero. Aromasin will only suppress up to 80%. Letrozole is the only one that can put you at near zero but you will never hit zero.
If the range of healthy male is on a sliding scale 100 being top and 30 minimum aro will put you at exactly the minimum of 30. Thats only based on genetics, and your predisposition of normal e2 level off cycle and all drugs. Any male can fall into that scale and be normal at the top or bottom as that will also depend on natural test level and free. Its always hard and thats why cookie cutters for ai's are a bad idea. So with that is why I always stress before cycle bloods and in the middle so you can see tje base of where you started normal so you can match it to stay even and grow. High test and normal (off cycle) e2 will truly make you grow like a fkn weed.
Gotcha and I agree. I’m not “crashed” I’m below the bottom end of the normal range. I know this because I have crashed estro before and that was a whole different ball game. But as you say it’s certainly not optimal for growth. Bloodwork is key to getting it all dialled in.
What’s interesting for me is that even with my years of experience throw an unknown into the mix (HCG in this case and aro as a choice of AI) and it’s a learning process. Never too old or too experienced to need to learn and skill up. And nothing wrong with admitting that. Thanks for your help and insights it’s appreciated!
It would seem most lads here dose it 2 or 3 times a week successfully from my experience, myself included.
Great read
When I have used it I ended up with 25mg EOD. The little pills were to hard to split so I just ended up doing it that way. Worked just fine doing it that way. I don't seem to respond to it very well though, Adex works much stronger for me and that is what I use when I am not running a low test cycle. With a low test cycle I'll use Asin as needed which may only be needed a couple times a week. Adex is to strong for me to run with low test cycles so popping 25mg of asin 1-2x/wk if needed keeps things in check.
Thanks for sharing this Dacky, how did you feel and looked in the mirror when estro crashed??
Crashed my one not that long ago and felt like committing suicide, felt very bad.
I feel perfect. No issues at all other than an itchy scalp. Libido is good, energy is good, mood is perfect, no joint pains, still seeing gains. My guess is it’s just below the bottom end of the range and so they don’t give an actual reading. I’ve fully crashed it before when the lab I was using did give the reading and I knew all about it then and it just confirmed what I thought was happening.
Although I feel ok it’s not optimal for gains and at the back of my mind have a sense it’s contributing to my lipid issues although I can’t find any science to back this up in men. For women it would be no doubt that low estrogen and poor lipids would go hand in hand.
Hey brother its murph ive been using aro actually exemestane 6.25mg 2x a wk and my estro is either just above range or just in range.
Im running a primo cycle 600mg with test at 250mg hgh at 2iu. Even when I run my test higer say when I ran sust at 750mgs a wk I only dosed 12.5 2x a wk.
I never do things the cookie cutter way I do what works for me.
If it works for you go with it.
Great post I always like reading posts that go against the grain.
BIGMURPH
RustyhookerAro in men half life is 3 hours. Women 9. But since its suicidal, its fast.
I dose mine as needed and not just because of deadlines. Some cycles i need no ai. Some cycles i hit 6.25 just once a week to knock estro down.
Uchibah458Can you provide any more info on this 3hours half life in males? Never knew that
This method, which you and I already diacussed, worked well for me on my cycle, just 500mg test per week. Only dose it when I feel I need it, but if my E gets high it's pretty easy to tell, I really just let my libido be the guide.
I’ve read women was about 24hours and approximately 8hours in men.
Yeah I've read the same , just one example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14671195/
RustyhookerIve seen that one but also saw another in comparison between men and women with men about 3. 9 is what we posted prior aling with 12mg am 12pm for guys having bad e2 or 6.25 am...pm .
Ill see if i can refind that ncbi comparison.
The thing that trips me out is even trying 25mg as the links suggest. If i use it on the once a week at 12 instead of 6.25, i wake up with sore joints, dry scalp and dry lips. Everyones e2 conversion is different though.
Exactly couldn't have said it better.
+1