posted Wed, 07/31/2013 - 15:37
3603
+ 1 taking nolvadex w/ deca
ad
A guy in my gym took deca w/ nolvadex and he came up to ask me for advice but i really had nothing for him.. was wondering if can fill me in on this so i know the answer for myself..
I heard that taking nolvadex while on deca can cause the worst limp dick u can ever get in ur life? and even gyno?
i never done it but this guy did. he is taking prami as a Anti protagonist, he is using test as a base.. kinda of curious
Any one here took deca w/ nolvadex and how did it effect you
- Bookmark
- 1
- 0
I've heard it can increase progestin/prolactin related side effects. I actually hear that a lot. Why don't you clear that up rather then give me negative karma.
You heard that from some bro on the interweb, does that mean it's true? NO! Do some actual research and you will see this claim is complete horse shit.
When taking deca you should use Clomid as a pct instead of Nolvadex because nolva increases prolactin sides. So you should definitely not take nolvadex when on a deca cycle. Make sure you have prami or cabre on hand to fight prolactin sides. m8. good luck.
Complete bro - science bullshit. -1
Bump
Nice move MedDx. This is a good thread! Lots of good info
Honestly nolva doesn't affect it like people think.. especially when you're using something like prami or caber.. he should be fine.. if nolva really screwed up your prolactin when mixed with deca or tren like some people say there would be tons of guys walking around with super soaker tits.. if anything it could help him avoid estrodal gyno and the prami he's on will help with prolactin.. I'm assuming he is also taking an AI?
for deca you will need some form of anti prolactin, caber/ bromo/ or prami, nolvadex wont help with lactation, it doesn't kill estrogen, it just occupies certain areas to stop it binding, i.e behind the nipples!! if hes running test he needs aromasin or adex, but he needs one of those three I mentioned aswell!!!!
VewiYou have what's called AI's (Ancillaries) and Serms..
On cycle you take AI's Like Adex, or Aromasin (and have things like letro or Carbear on hand incase shit hits the fan)
You take serms during your PCT.. like novadex and clomid.
He should be taking Aromasin not novadex..
He also must be using test as a base in his cycle or he is fucked when it comes to libido.
im familiar with the safety brother, im pretty sure he used test as a base, i was just curious what happens when u combine deca and nolvadex?
Vewithe novadex will help in the chest and help with some estor effects....
But novadex is more about producing LH than it is about blocking estor. he will struggle if that is all he is taking that's. all, much easier if he is using Adex, or Armosin.
what u think when ppl say that nolvadex increases the effect of deca as a progestrone or increases progestrone in general?
Vewi"Effects of tamoxifen on endometrial estrogen and progesterone receptor concentrations in women with fibrocystic disease of the breast."
Published in Gynecological Endocrinology Magazine (See references).
At some point in time someone read this then came up with a false summation regarding Tamoxifen upregulatation of progesterone receptors. This falsity was then spread about and became a universal truth. Tamoxifen does in fact upregulate pregesterone receptors (PGR) in some individuals as I will explain later, however the Lopez-Comenge trial found that tamoxifen had no effect on progesterone receptors in endometrial tissue at all. That means no upregulation nor any down regulation.
This concept should have been apparent to many from the start as Nolvadex has a strong affinity to receptors in the pectoral region. Hence it's once famous usage tout regarding gynecomastia prevention. As a result of this affinity Nolvadex has very little effect on tissues outside of the pectoral region. I have provided the abstract as a reference point.
Most online medical journal sites have a copy of the entirety of the clinical trials, but for the purposes of this treatise we are concerned with end results thus a abstract proves a suitable alternative since most of you are not willing to pay a subscription fee to view medical trials (though I urge you to start).
I have taken the liberty of emphasizing the key point.
Abstract
Endocrine changes were determined after a 3-week cycle of tamoxifen treatment in 11 regularly cycling women with clinical and radiological evidence of fibrocystic disease of the breast. Blood and endometrial samples were obtained during the luteal phase prior to and at the end of treatment. Tamoxifen treatment (20 mg/day orally for 3 weeks), produced a significant increase in plasma estradiol (p = 0.0018) without simultaneous changes in plasma luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, prolactin or progesterone. Tamoxifen treatment significantly reduced endometrial estrogen receptor levels compared to the control cycle (p = 0.0018) while endometrial progesterone receptor levels remained unchanged. Endometrial histological studies showed secretory transformation in both the control cycle and after tamoxifen treatment. The reduction in endometrial estrogen receptor concentrations would suggest a tamoxifen-induced effect or a down-regulatory mechanism to protect target tissues from high estradiol levels. These changes were not associated with alterations in either plasma progesterone or endometrial progesterone receptor concentrations. The tamoxifen-induced changes did not produce any interference in the glandular secretory response of the endometrium. So that is one myth dispelled. Tamoxifen has no effect on receptors other than those found in the pectoral region. So the endometrial progesterone receptor upregulation story is a myth.
Proceeding to the pectoral region of the body we do notice a different story. In the long run Tamoxifen down regulates both progesterone and estrogen receptors. I know this is contrary to popular belief but note I said in the long run meaning 3-4 weeks. A study was done by Dr. N Waseda, Dr. Y Kato, Dr. H Imura, and Dr. M Kurata. The title of the article was:
"Effects of tamoxifen on estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer."
Published in Cancer Research Magazine (See references)
The results showed that use of tamoxifen during the first two weeks actually did in fact upregulate both estrogen and progesterone receptors. This may seem counter-intuitive to some of you. Your probably thinking. "Wait, if tamoxifen actually upregulates estrogen receptors then why is it used for gynecomastia prevention?" The key element here is that tamoxifen is a SERM. Tamoxifen may upregulate estrogen receptor sites but, it also binds them.
Tamoxifen cannot bind to progesterone receptors though. [B]So in the short run Tamoxifen can in fact aggravate progesterone related gynecomastia for some individuals. Note the study utilized twenty individuals and only 3 out of 5 (60%) had PGR upregulation. In the span of 3-4 weeks those same patients with increased PGR noticed a decrease in PGR levels.
So in summation, in the short run I.E. a span of 1-2 weeks approximately 60% of people will experience progesterone upregulation. In the long run however, EVERYONE will experience PGR downregulation.
So what's my recommendation? Implement Tamoxifen use 4 weeks prior to a 19-nor cycle to down regulate PGR receptors. Of course this whole treatise is a moot point as the use of a prolactin inhibitors makes progesterone gynecomastia a thing of the past.
Once again I have provided the abstract and highlighted key points.
Abstract
Twenty patients with primary breast cancer were treated with tamoxifen (10 mg p.o. twice a day) for 1 to 4 weeks. Before and after the tamoxifen administration, tumor specimens were obtained and assayed for estrogen receptors and progesterone receptors (PGR). Total cytosol estrogen receptor (ERC) and occupied nuclear estrogen receptor (ERN) were measured by hydroxylapatite assay, and unoccupied PGR was measured by the dextran-coated charcoal assay. ERC, ERN, and PGR were detectable in 11, 8, and 6 tumors, respectively, before tamoxifen administration. After tamoxifen treatment, ERC decreased in 10 of 11 ERC-positive tumors. Occupied ERN increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors treated with tamoxifen for a short period (1 to 2 weeks), but they decreased in all of three ERN-positive tumors after longer administration (3 to 4 weeks). PGR increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors after short-term tamoxifen treatment, but they decreased in all of three tumors treated by the drug for a longer period. Increased PGR responses were accompanied by an increase of ERN in two of three ERN-positive tumors. These results suggest that tamoxifen interacts with the estrogen receptor system in human breast cancer tissue and may be estrogenic during short treatment, while longer treatment results in an antiestrogenic response. I of course have several more sources regarding this matter I put the two referenced and two others in my references. I have a total of 31 articles related to this though and I am too lazy to put them all in. If you have questions regarding certain topics I can point you towards an article that may clarify the topic for you.
References
1. Gynecol Endocrinol. 1993 Sep;7(3):185-9. Effects of tamoxifen on endometrial estrogen and progesterone receptor concentrations in women with fibrocystic disease of the breast. Pérez-López FR, Blasco Comenge C. Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Hospital Clínico, Zaragoza, Spain.
Cancer Res. 1981 May;41(5):1984-8.
Effects of tamoxifen on estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer. Waseda N, Kato Y, Imura H, Kurata M.
Br J Cancer. 1993 March; 67(3): 606***8211;611. PMCID: PMC1968274
Effect of tamoxifen on Ki67 labelling index in human breast tumours and its relationship to oestrogen and progesterone receptor status. R. B. Clarke, I. J. Laidlaw, L. J. Jones, A. Howell, and E. Anderson
Clinical Research Dept., Christie Hospital NHS Trust, Withington, Manchester.
Clinical Cancer Research. High Progesterone Receptor Expression Correlates to the Effect of Adjuvant Tamoxifen in Premenopausal Breast Cancer Patients. Maria Stendahl1,2, Lisa Rydén1, Bo Nordenskjöld3, Per Ebbe Jönsson4, Göran Landberg1 and Karin Jirström1
i would +3 u if i had my old account, thank u so much