+ 3 Oral EQ?
So I just got off the road and was reading Anabolics by William Llewellyn and there is some pretty interesting info in there (and with cited sources!) that kills alot of bro science you hear on the web. So I continued to keep reading after I read over these and here are a few of them:
-
Eq and Anadrol do not increase red blood cell count any more than any other AAS we take to cycle
-
Dbol (Methandrostenolone) is alkylated boldenone (Oral Equipoise) yet doesn't exhibit the same enhancements as EQ
-
Nandrolones are the least androgenic compounds (yes even compared to Primobolan)
-
Winny, primo and anavar are actually not the safest to take for females despite bro science (see #3)
What you guys think? pretty sure some of you guys knew this already but was pretty eye opening to me. Discuss
- Bookmark
- 3
- 0
BigBmajI've read all sorts of things over the years that seems to contradict popular opinion. I tend to give little credence to something I read these days. Bro science or hard science. Getting a RBC count is as simple as running to the doc. I'd get my blood drawn a few times throughout the year and see what's actually happening.
I read these damn medical journals all the time that insist this is what happens in the lab, but when I meet people who have gotten blood work done its not the case.
Reading all day about gear will not teach you as much as running a few cycles in my opinion. The question arises tho - how much does studying what should happen affect what does happen? Example: EQ never made me anxious until I read about all sorts of people getting stressed out on the stuff.
yes bro yes! Its actually called the nocebo effect. example
http://www.figu.org/ch/verein/periodika/bulletin/2013/nr-79/nocebo-side-...
crazy the games the mind can produce. real powerful.
Plus 1
Great post!!!
Oh yeah baby! RBC ALL DAY BABY!
anadrol!!!
I'm on it now don't care what a book say I got real life experience and that's the best they say!
Oxymetholone is known to raise rbc very quickly and effectively! All AAS do this; but anadrol the most of all!
GATORGEAR
AnonWho the fuck down voted this thread?!?!?! I swear some real Bit@#$% around here. You know who u are even if I know u and like u ur a bit@$ for down voting an interesting thread. Grow the fuck up
Just cuz u don't agree with him or think his opinion is wrong don't down vote it.
think it was me on accident my iPhone. BUt i actually learned something new from this post. fixed it
AnonRight on J.
lol its all good bro. Also I was just about to write to you that you are also right in your approach too. When you think about it, AAS are so variable in people that even whats written down on paper as fact doesn't and does apply to some people or to many. Like tren cough for example. Nobody knows why it happens but bros definitely do experience it. Even Deca dick. Theoretically run with test people shouldn't experience it but yet alot of people report they do. I realized in this game all we have are each other's experiences to really go off of.
Yea that's definitely true. I've personally experienced both tren cough and deca dick, those are certainly not myths haha. Good post bro I enjoy these types with studies and such.
RustyhookerI thumbed it up to level it out. Agree or disagree it's at least about roids.
agree bro. Sorry about earlier too. I got a little hot headed for no reason and I shouldn't have.
RustyhookerHaha! We all do! Hard part of separating bro-science is some gear was used only in animals. Tren and eq were two of them. But either route, we got a long ass discussion that proves more effective than guessing.
AnonThere it is
BOOM!
RustyhookerEarlier in this post i was typin so fast i down thumbed myself! Hahaha! Dang smarty phones
Is there a limit to how high your rbc will go? Is it dose dependent?
RustyhookerThere is no limit to how high rbc can be raised. Google EPO and the side effects. You can DIE from blood being too thick from elevated RBC.
I cant be for certain but im sure the body has a way of regulating as well. Surely is dose dependent as most things are but I cant say for certain. I do know TRT patients are supposed to donate blood 3x a year (month?) for this reason alone but then again that is from testosterone. Cant exactly speak for Boldenone or Oxymetholone
Thank you for the helpful reply, I've read a lot about lowering rbc via donation but never have saw anyone mention doctors have their trt patients do it so I never gave it a second thought. Sounds like I need to check my self lol. Very helpful indeed!
No problem! Infact really all AAS users should donate blood to reduce red blood cell count while on cycle but even I am guilty of not following that
Would recipients of this donated blood be affected in anyway due to the blood coming from an AAS user?
Every thread that talks about that has two schools of thought, some say its irresponsible and unethical because it requires lying (using needles and illegal substances), others say the blood goes through so many different processes after you donate it it doesn't make a difference. But it has already been heavily discussed
Thanks Jonny! So have you ever donated. Maybe ill just fill up a bag of blood here at the house.I owe you one buddy! I wonder how much i should drain?
Thanks for that +1
RustyhookerCited by Llewellen..... http://www.basskilleronline.com/profile-equipoise.shtml
Not sure if it makes a difference but that was from 2004. What I posted at the top was from the 10th edition 2011.
RustyhookerIm done here....I run EQ yearly after thorough research and self trials. High or low eq. Its not thoroughly tested on humans because it is illegl to do so. As far as testing on Old folks, any research can clearly provide that their systems are not the same as younger folks. Jump on eq like I have and you'll clearly see every effect of high rbc. Much higher that test. Or then ask all the veterinarians why they run EQ at the race track when in fact they could run test just as easy if not easier. The primary reason anyone runs eq is to gain performance much higher than normal steroids. That comes from excessive levels in RBC.
not even remotely true. EQ is usually run because of its vascularity effect, endurance effect and is it FAAAR less androgenic than testosterone as well as low on aromatization properties lol. But as you said you were done, no point in arguing it. When you can show me relevant studies it would help. Personal opinions and results aren't documented facts.
what part of EQ IS NOT A HUMAN DRUG do you not understand?? It's nearly impossible to find studies on boldenone for this reason.
People getting blood tests while on eq often have high rbc. Its a common trend. Believe what you want. Just because it's not documented does not mean its not true.
i think william llewellyn is full of shit
hard to say when its backed up with sources....but those sources I have posted below also claim that there is no sufficient evidence to the claim EQ increases red blood cell count more than any other AAS
Number one is wrong. Anadrol DOES increase RBC more so than most other steroids. Oxymethylone was originally prescribed for anemia. The only reason it isn't so much anymore is because EPO also increases rbc without the androgenic side effects.
2 is true yep. One little change in chemical structure causes the 2 drugs to be completely different. Look at the structure of testosterone and estrogen. Estrogen has an extra double bond and 1 less methyl group. They are pretty much structurally identical but these minor differences cause the two to be completely different.
3 - this is possible, I would believe it.
4 - yea winny isn't usually best choice for women. But they take such small doses that it usually doesn't make it much worse than other androgens
hmmm that is true as well. Heres the exact quote out the book, "In the kidneys, this same process works to allow androgens to augment erythropoiesis ( red blood cell production.) It is this effect that leads to an increase in red blood cell concentrations, and possibly increased oxygen transport capacity, during anabolic/androgenic steroid therapy. Many athletes mistakenly assume that oxymetholone and boldenone are unique in this ability, due to specific uses or mentions of this effect in drug literature. In fact, stimulation of erythropoiesis occurs with nearly all anabolic/androgenic steroids, as this effect is simply tied with activation of the androgen receptor in kidney cells. The only real exception might be compounds such as dihydrotestosterone and some of its derivatives....)"
Sources: Androgens and Erythropoeisis. J Clin Pharmacol. Feb-Mar 1974 p94-101
Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Eur J Med Res 1997 Jul 28; 2(7): 293-82
Maybe he's saying that people believe ONLY Oxymetholone and Boldenone are capable of this but that they also do it better than others.
RustyhookerYes.....mistakenly believe that only those two raise rbc. All gear raises rbc but those two have been used to really boost the rbc effects. Especially adrol which is still used in human clinicsl applications
http://www.ehow.com/about_5381556_boldenone-side-effects.html
yes thats true also. All steroids do this.
BUT anadrol and EQ increase RBC at a quicker rate then other steroids do.
no offense but all the studies im pulling up show that EQ despite popular belief doesn't raise red blood cell count more than any other AAS...here's some others
http://www.totalflexblog.com/articles/steroids-athletic-performance-and-...
In 1967, boldenone undecyclenate was being clinically evaluated by Ciba. At that time the drug was known by its internal moniker of BA-29038. Elderly men and women (aged 70-95) were given BA-29038 at a dosage of 50mg every two weeks for a period of 16 weeks. THE EXPECTED INCREASE IN HEMATOCRIT (the percentage of blood made up of red blood cells) TURNED OUT TO BE RELATIVELY MINOR (from 41.74±3.1 to 43.3:±4.1), AND WAS NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. [1] That the effects on erythropoiesis were so mild is not too surprising, given the extremely modest dosages involved (bodybuilders often inject doses 20 or more times greater than that used in this study on a weekly basis).
also goes on to say
Another study, conducted in 1973 on horses by Squibb (makers of EquipoiseTM) also failed to show an increase in hematocrit in the study period (although again, it was injected at a low dose – so low that no statistically relevant anabolic effect was noted).
There's more cant post it all.
Another study:
Boldenone & Erythropoiesis
5-a & 5-b isomers actions related to erythropoiesis
by Blackbaccara
This review is a working hypothesis and not a demonstration of the superiority of boldenone over the other AAS in regard of erythropoiesis.
Boldenone (17beta Hydroxyandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one) is often believe in the bodybuilding community to be a potent erythropoiesis stimulant able to enhance blood parameters by increasing red cells and thus enhancing the oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.
But actually, we know that virtually all AAS* (1) can enhance erythropoietin, like nandrolone decanoate (deca-durabolin) (2) which has been estimated as potent as recombinant human erythropoietin in the treatment of anemia (3).
Furthermore, the US food and drug administration has approved oxymetholone, an anabolic-androgenic steroid sold under the name Anadrol50, for the treatment of anemia. However this compound is maybe not the most potent for increasing erythropoietin at supraphysiological level and this could be related to its weak androgenicity (4).
Effects on erythropoietin and erythropoiesis are thought to be mediated through the AR since androgen receptors have been localized in bone marrow (5) and kidneys (6).
But inactive androgens known as 5-b isomers (7) have been shown to be very effective in regards to erythropoiesis. These steroids result of the reduction of the 4,5 double bond by the enzyme 5-b reductase. They differ from usual 5-a reducted metabolites by the position of the hydrogen atom at the rings A and B junction.
A study on mices shows that 5 alpha-androstane and 5 beta-androstane metabolites have nearly the same efficacy in the treatment of aplastic anemia (8) but « 5 beta-androstanes were more efficient on the granulopoietic committed stem cells ».
If AAS and their 5-alpha structures or metabolites work predominantly by stimulating erythropoietin release, and the other hand, anti-erythropeietin doesn’t abolish the erythropoiesis-stimulating effects of 5-beta steroids (9). The exact mechanism of action of these metabolites is unkwnon and many hypothesis co-exist like a direct influence of these steroids on blood-forming tissues and an enhancing effect on heme synthesis. It as also been demonstrated that the nonandrogenic 5-b dihydrotestosterone provides some protective effect on erythroid precursor cells (10) and while testosterone and 5-a metabolites are unable to enhance the number of colonies of hemoglobin synthesizing cells, 5-b metabolites are very active in this regard. (11).
So it is established that 5-b androstanes are potent and more effectives than 5-a androstanes to stimulate erythropoiesis. (12)
Another....
"Boldenone is rumored to be very good at increasing red blood cell production. While all androgens stimulate erythropoiesis,THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE THAT BOLDENONE IS SUPERIOR IN PRODUCING THIS EFFECT5,6,7,8. This increased RBC production may have an ergogenic effect by increasing athletic performance. Boldenone is said to cause an increase in vascularity. There is no mechanism to explain why boldenone would do this anymore than any other AAS.
Rustyhooker50mgs every two Weeks!! Lmao! Cmon man my midget but runs 600 every week. Posted blood tests right here on this site prove the excessive RBC raise. Compare the test and eq cycles. Completely different
damn who downvoted this? I dont think thats right because you simply pointed that out....anyway yes thats true although theres like 4 other studies I posted. You only gave me a wikipedia article that stated in the effects section: "This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2009)" Not exactly helpful Can you link me to your blood test? not finding it on your profile. Also like I stated...im not saying EQ does not raise hematocrit. I am saying that ALL aas do and EQ doesn't do it any more better than any other.
RustyhookerMy own thumb on my phone downvoted....lol!! Will do on medical sources. On laptop now. But testing at 50mg every two weeks ....not in the roid world or wed all cycle at that level.
fixed it. Also thanks
lol and it was given to 70-95 year old women!!!
Im pretty sure that was factored in by the researchers. Dont think age would necessarily skew results since we're all pretty much the same at cellular level.
it absolutely would skew the results.
At the cellular level 20-40 year olds are much different than 90 year olds. If you knew anything about biology you would know this.
I do know about biology...infact I am majoring Biology. I'm talking about significance as in Alphas, confidence intervals and critical values and p-values. I'm sure this all went into the testing. No reason for insults, its completely childish.
RustyhookerNice! My major is also bio-health science. Geriatrics is a whole different field.
Then you would know a thing or two about genetics, and ageing can cause many changes at the cellular level.
There is a significant difference between the function of cell in a 25 year old and a 95 year old. So yes age would absolutely skew results. We don't know if anabolic steroids would be as effective in increasing RBC's in 90 year olds as they would be in younger people.
by the way I'm currently taking cellular biology class this semester. I'm also a biology major.
Good then you understand what i'm going through. I dont know, maybe what i'm saying wasn't really clear. I'm not saying that in biology age isn't a relevant factor when conducting experiments. i'm saying that for the test they conducted i'm sure when they decided to use these individuals, their age was also considered for the variables. Given that they didn't mention anything about their age being relevant (in this particular study) I would assume its not going to skew results. But aside from that of course I know age is relevant in biology. I remember from Genetics class when my professor was demonstrating how one of the sole reasons people show signs of age is with degeneration of telomerase at the DNA endings. Of course I was halfway knocked out in that lecture but I sprung up when he started talking about how HGH could potentially reverse that lol. Hope you dont think we're arguing bro. Just trying to have a discussion here. Im not trying to dismiss the studies you found and I would hope you wouldn't do the same. Just trying to think outside the box here.
I'm saying the study is not a good enough indicator of boldenone's ability to increase RBC. Unfortunately boldenone is a veterinary drug so the amount of QUALITY studies is very limited.
Your study is interesting, but has many flaws and too big of claims. I'm sure if we dug hard enough we could find some solid evidence about eq's affect on blood cells. Like rusty said earlier, usually people who get blood tests done while using EQ cycles have higher RBC. It's a common trend and is not nearly as often noticed in people who had tests done with cycles lacking anadrol or eq.
RustyhookerAge most certainly skews the results. Or why do ya think trt and hgh is suddenly on the normal list in medical fields now.
I'm saying to the point where one would consider it significant or not. TRT as well if one is truly hypogonad. Its the reason why 100-200 mg is usually administered. Thats like saying because a younger TRT patient is young, he needs 300-500 to be in normal range which we all know isn't true
the problem with EQ is that it is not approved for use in humans in medicine. You will not find many studies on EQ vs testosterone for this reason alone.