posted Sun, 11/18/2018 - 04:09
9047
+ 3 Do you think a liver cleanse prior to a cycle as well as during is beneficial?
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I want to run some dbol and halo with some oils. Is it a waste to do a liver cleanse prior to my cycle instead of just doing it during the cycle? I know its good practice to always bo on a liver cleanse but im just curious if the benefits are minimal or worth it.
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Not that I could eat the stuff, but does that actually work? such as like liver pate also..
Liver is the most nutrient packed food on planet earth. Nothing comes close. Beef and calf liver will taste stronger than chicken livers. Always throw them in ice water before cooking. And eat right after buying. It has everything our livers need. And its natural not man made supps. Natural vitamins from food sources cost three times as much asThe synthetic stuff at wallmart. It is better than nothing i guess .
Cheers man! You've taught me something there lol +
Your best bet? It sounds crazy, so brace yourself…
Eat a liver-healthy diet year-round. Make it part of your lifestyle.
The best answer so far, Actual real unpaid scientific tests showed milk thistle to be inconclusive at doing anything. Maybe someone will read these findings using medical texts instead of "Big Pharma"
The results were inconclusive because they were all over the place for what milk thistle was being used for in the trials. Some worked, some didnt, some got sick, some had no change, e.t.c. In my personal conclusion its worthless. A diet that does not fuck your liver up as well as not drinking is a far better plan than trying to rely on a "magic pill." Also the studies they showed here were from a gathering of studies not one only like the sellers of the stuff do.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11896/
Just in case noone wants to actually read the entire study, here is the excerpt:
Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established. Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications. Problems in study design include heterogeneity in etiology and extent of liver disease, small sample sizes, and variation in formulation, dosing, and duration of milk thistle therapy. Possible benefit has been shown most frequently, but not consistently, for improvement in aminotransferases and liver function tests are overwhelmingly the most common outcome measure studied. Survival and other clinical outcome measures have been studied least often, with both positive and negative findings. Available evidence is not sufficient to suggest whether milk thistle may be more effective for some liver diseases than others or if effectiveness might be related to duration of therapy or chronicity and severity of liver disease. Regarding adverse effects, little evidence is available regarding causality, but available evidence does suggest that milk thistle is associated with few, and generally minor, adverse effects.
Despite substantial in vitro and animal research, the mechanism of action of milk thistle is not fully defined and may be multifactorial. A systematic review of this evidence to clarify what is known and identify gaps in knowledge would be important to guide design of future studies of the mechanisms of milk thistle and clinical trials.
Future Research
The type, frequency, and severity of adverse effects related to milk thistle preparations should be quantified. Whether adverse effects are specific to dose, particular preparations, or additional herbal ingredients needs elucidation, especially in light of equivalent frequencies of adverse effects in available randomized trials. When adverse effects are reported, concomitant use of other medications and product content analysis should also be reported so that other drugs, excipients, or contaminants may be scrutinized as potential causal factors.
Characteristics of future studies in humans should include:
Longer and larger randomized trials.
Clinical as well as physiologic outcome measures.
Histologic outcomes.
Adequate blinding.
Detailed data about compliance and dropouts.
Systematic standardized surveillance for adverse effects.
Attention to specific study populations (e.g., patients with hepatitis B virus [HBV], or hepatitis C virus [HCV], or mixed infection or coinfection with human immunodeficiency virus [HIV]), comorbidities, alcohol consumption, and potential confounders.
There also should be detailed attention to preparation, standardization, and bioavailability of different formulations of milk thistle (e.g., standardized silymarin extract and silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex).
Precise mechanisms of action specific to different etiologies and stages of liver disease need explication. Further mechanistic investigations are needed and should be considered before, or in concert with, studies of clinical effectiveness. More information is needed about effectiveness of milk thistle for severe acute ingestion of hepatotoxins, such as occupational exposures, acetaminophen overdose, and amanita poisoning.
Go to:
Availability of the Full Report
The full evidence report from which this summary was derived was prepared by the San Antonio Evidence-based Practice Center based at The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio and the Veterans Evidence-based Research, Dissemination, and Implementation Center (VERDICT), a Veterans Affairs Health Services Research and Development Center of Excellence under contract No. 290-97-0012. It is expected to be available in winter 2000. At that time, printed copies may be obtained free of charge from the AHRQ Publications Clearinghouse by calling 800-358-9295. Requesters should ask for Evidence Report/Technology Assessment Number 21, Milk Thistle: Effects on Liver Disease and Cirrhosis and Clinical Adverse Effects (AHRQ Publication No. 01-E025).
When available online, the Evidence Report will be at http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcix.htm
Isn't it funny though that the testing was done in 2000 and noone has done the trials again? Does it magically work now as in the human body evolved in 18 years? Its worth more money to not test it thoroughly as they can continue to sell it as a "liver protector" when in theory it does the opposite.
Good topic +
I use milk thistle off cycle year round (I am a drinker, so liver is on my mind in general). It is fantastic.
I also use keto too at times (fat adaption rather than ketogenic diet). This helps reverse the damage that high carb diets do to the liver (and other things like lipids).
On cycle, I will use Liv52 or Tudca.
It is prudent to think this way about the kidneys too as they, unfortunately, cannot regenerate.
Don’t believe in liv52 too much to be honest but Silymarin and Tudca while being on sounds as a great idea
Honestly I was never sold on Liv52 too much in the past myself. Again, being honest about it, I neglected organ care a lot in the past. But more recently I had an on-cycle, non-steroid related dent to my liver and read up about Liv52 as it was immediately accessible. Whatever it was I read at the time convinced me it was worth a go. My liver values came to normal very quick after using it.
I reckon either Tudca or Liv52, which you prefer, are the way to go..... if you need liver care at all that is, on cycle. They seem to do the heavy lifting pretty well.
Silymarin, as they develop it independently, I think could be huge, particularly for drinkers, carb munchers and such.
Who_CaresNac and Tudca
Milkthistel is so underrated bro
++
Milk thistle from walmart is worthless. Its just the seeds. didnt do crap for me. The liquid extracts that have standardized silymarin(the good stuff) works. Its defeinatly worth it 100%. But it seems genetics could play roles in supplementation just like gear
Because its worthless.
Sorry Mack I have to disagree brother..
In the UK we give milkthistel to cancer patients to help prevent liver damage during chemotherapy and It also helps the body take in certain medications (again cancer related).
If you knew anything about the good old NHS you would know that you get nothing unless it does something to benefit you.
They definitely wouldn't dish out hocus pocus pills just for the sake of it mate it would cost to much and then there would be the legal side of things
I can honestly say we are right and we are wrong. It may help some people and it may do nothing for others. I read more articles about it doing nothing and then others saying it does something. I believe ANY inflammatory will work just as good if not better. Sounds to me Green tea is more effective and its been used as a cleansing agent in the orient far longer than milk thistle has been. You see it as a key ingredient in 90% of cleansing chems. There has to be a reason for that. I drink green tea while I train. I drink iced green tea when I dont. I may not feel it working like cocaine but its benefits are heavily written about.
Agreed!
My wife has a freind who's father is Chinese. He's pushed green tea on her since old enough to drink it.
She's 36 years old but looks like a teenager and her skin is unbelievable. I've no doubt that green yea is an amazing tool for anyone especially guys like us.
Have a good day big man ;)
Milk thistle from seed is worthless. Extracted liquid silymarin works.
You should have a read of the post y2K studies on MT/Silymarin. The one on non alcoholic fatty liver disease is very relevant for bodybuilders. Id normally agree with what you say about supps but in this instance many of the additives are there for good reason.... the main thing when choosing a preparation is the concentration of the beneficial MT compounds and the additives to help absorption/availability. When you see things like dandelion added, it is usually for complimentary things like insulin sensitivity in the liver. That said, I am sure there are many BS preparations out there sold by crappy supps companies too, of course.
Honestly, the more recent studies are worth a read. Actually there is a more recent review like the one you referenced that covers some of the newer studies too. from 2010. can email it if u are bothered reading.
I found one from 2015 that says the active ingredient in milk whistle.....is the same as whats in green tea.
The same fkn thing. Let me see what else I can dig.
This is actually getting fun.
https://nccih.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/071715
I had a quick read of that, will read the full thing later, but what I got from it was they were talking about EGCG from green tea, but milk thistle's main compound is silymarin?
Here is a link to the 2010 review: https://ufile.io/6p3zy
It is a pdf file.
You will recognise a lot of the older stuff, so it is equally critical of certain studies as the review you read, but it takes a look (up to 2009 I guess) of some of the newer stuff, some relevant and some like the cancer work maybe less relevant for most of us.
Pm me the newer one. I couldnt find it. I'll bother reading it. I love to read.
Just sent an FR, bit in the meantime posted a link just above to a pdf
StevebA lot of herbs are useless after being dried and turned into powder. You should always try and get cold pressed.
https://www.amazon.com/Siberian-Thistle-Premium-Quality-Virgin/dp/B075CP...
RustyhookerI run thistle and my liver tests came out at the lowest numbers on the range.
Maybe more dependant upon the gear run?
Who_CaresRusty you ever tried Tumeric?
RustyhookerNot yet. Which hopefully this forum can spur on a new series of blood tests. Maybe the guys starting winter bulkers on dbol etc can try different liv support. See which ones keep them in better range. Eliminate the guesswork to a degree
Who_CaresIm going tondo 2 bloods this winter. With 2 different combos of liver support supps
That would be useful. Change only the support dont change anything else or its skewed.
Who_CaresYes gear and diet will be exact
RustyhookerWill be interesting!! Look forward to reading your findings
Just thistle? I bet you also ran other things too though. Most people run thistle with tudca or any other liver protector and say the thislte works, no proof if it was. Could have been the tudca, or the liver oil, or the vitamin c, or e.t.c. Try running it all by itself and see what the values of your liver are on a oral cycle. I want to say nothing will change or its very negligable at best. So many snake oils out there and its not in the interest of science to prove it because their funding comes from the very people selling it.
Its like everyone loved C4 because all the tests showed it works for preworkout, all the tests were done by paid people who got the shit for free or were paid to promote it. C4 is garbage to me.
Never like c4 either. You remeber craze haha that shit bad me not sleep first time and lifted for 4 hours
RustyhookerMy norm is mega b, 500mg c and milk thistle, and saw palmetto. Thats all. And i have a shot or 2 after work winding down. I think i got the results saved and can post.
The saw palmetto had me at 0.4 with 4.0 being the max before health issues.
EDIT-----First test vs added in milk thistle. Everyones different but i will retest on a heavy oral run.
Big time man! As a drinker it is definitely something to us. Gotta clear that Guinness somehow LOL
You could do it without milk thistle, mate. Just drink clear spirits, liver can't see them
Btw, normally i run milkthistle year round. Actually trying liv52.
Hahaha I like bro......might have to try that lol
Wasnt liv52 waaaay cheaper just like few years back. Idk myabe i dont remember right
Who_CaresI have heard thisle is overrated. I guess the best test would be to get bloods before and after a cleanse and check liver enzymes
Yeah, Ive heard that too! Depends on what you are rating it for, I guess.
If you drink alcohol, one of the main areas where it has been studied was with alcoholics who in fact benefited more than non-alcoholics, for example. It has also been shown to positively effect fatty liver disease (commonly seen with alcoholics but also with those who abuse carbs- us lot!!). So as a lifestyle thing, it benefits.
However, on cycle, if you are taking something that more seriously elevates LV's, the heavy lifting should probably be done with the likes of Liv52 or Tudca for example. I haven't done bloods for Tudca but did see them for Liv52 after an on-cycle OD, and it dropped LV's a nice chunk to normal levels.
Cost is a factor for some too of course, and if you take the whole vitamin debate seriously too.... if we eat clean and dont have liver issues off cycle, it should take care of itself. But like I say, I enjoy my Guinness!
jayiskDo you drink while taking steroids? That would explain you claim that tren made you act like an "ass." Did you know that alcohol consumption expose people to a heightened risk of developing Alzheimer's disease.
And the study based on rats that you refer to in which the writers of concluded that more research on Tren and Alzheimers needs to be done. Which they never further did research on.
"Some studies have suggested that alcohol consumption could expose people to a heightened risk of developing Alzheimer's disease later in life. But the mechanics behind this relationship have been unclear — until now."
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322037.php
the study
https://jneuroinflammation.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12974-018...
study on alcohol and aggression which concluded:
""In conclusion, the results of the review indicate that alcohol
does indeed facilitate aggressive behavior. The effects of alcohol
on aggression were similar to the effects of other independent
variables on aggression. In addition, alcohol appears to influence
aggressive behavior as much or more than it influences
other social and nonsocial behaviors. "
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.486.6496&rep=re...
cant see how you take drinking alcohol so lightly when you claim to be about health and safety with all the research you post??
STFU.
Its usually Monday when the numpty's come out to play. must be a time zone thing.
jayisk"STFU" nice response. What's the matter buddy one too many pints today? Sounds like alcohol aggression.
"In conclusion, the results of the review indicate that alcohol does indeed facilitate aggressive behavior."
What happened to your typical response with so called science and studies?
Here is the facts pal.., there is no such thing as tren or roid rage. Own up to your behavior because this is what will cause you to act like an aggressive ass on tren a.
1- you are not emotionally and/or mentally mature enough for it.
2- you are taking mind or mood altering substances with it.
3- the side effects cause the temper i.e. Lack of sleep, being hungry, and sweating.
When l'm tired, hot, and hungry on or off gear I get angry.
GTFU.., and +1 for you buddy for showing what causes you to reply like that. Yet to see someone take a shot of tren no ester..,which is in your system quick.., and get angry.
The posts where people go full retard is when they have been drinking and/or using other mind and mood altering substances.
Cheers mate!
Jay......steroids don't cause eroid rage?
Sorry mate but they do. When we use steroids we upset the balance of hormone in our body as you know.
We all react different to certain steroids mate.......
On tren I'm a paranoid nervous wreck.
On test I'm on top of the world.
On masteron I'd punch a hourse to death just for looking at me wrong.
The piont is we all react differently to steroids but to say it's a fact that they don't is false mate
Kibby, you're about the most balanced person on this website.
You are wasting your breath on jay. He will refuse to acknowledge different people are effected in different ways and until a person understands that they will never know that there is no black&white to any of this.
I wouldn't go that far bro lol ;)
I see exactly what you mean mate
jayiskHow is he balanced if he has depression and anxiety and takes tren?
No you refuse to accept for your behaviour on gear. Blame the gear not those pints you drink.
Ah stop will ya. Look, straight up....
Straight fkn up, man to man... what you just said isnt ok. Thats not right to say that. Red card. If you said that in the real world to a man... what the fk do you think would happen?
I dont mean about me. Coz I do not care what you think about me. Slag me off. Here is some more ammo for ya... I like to brew beer and wine. I enjoy the process... I am a techie at heart, there is nothing I cannot do (nothing any of us cannot do if we dont want to), so I taught myself. I enjoy a social drink. I like stout, certain lager beers, a rare blonde Weiss beer, and the very very rare malty euro type beer. For wine... I love French red wines (with red meat yeah), Bordeaux's yum. I like Pinot Noir's and the occasional Fleurie.... Give me a Chateaux Neuf Du Pape and I will murder several steaks in one shot.
But that is.... taste. It is something small and enjoyable... something social.
It is not binge drinking or whatever they call what the kids do today.
It is not addiction.
It is not drinking until my liver hurts. Not even hangovers really for me..... well rarely at least....
Emmm...
But, even still I will take care of my organs as best I can, so I get my bloods periodically and I cleanse.
Ummmm
I dunno man.... you know a bit more about my drinking habits now.... so there ya go... tell me about tren? is that it, this is tren talk?! I dunno.
But slagging off a geezer like Kibby, over a thing like that. That is not ok. (he isnt using tren either).
You should fucking apologise YA FUCKING KUNT.
verrrry hoppy (pun intended) to retract the kunt comment when you stop acting like one
jayiskYou illiterate uneducated fool! If you weren't so dumb and read the comments below things are fine between me and Kibby. Kibby can defend himself he doesnt need your idiotic replies.
Now in your topic "I cant or would take tren anymore because I'm an alcoholic" I let it be because you claimed it was about "health and safety."
You self-righteous lying hypocrite. Health and safety. Yet you think that drinking and steroids is ok.
NO you fool that is the worse thing you can do. I can post studies but you wouldn't read them because you're a hypocrite, in denial, and the truth hurts.
You have been like a drunken stalker. Anywhere i posted anything about tren you show up. You show up here.
What is wrong with you. When I confronted you with legit studies and replies you punk response was i was following you and acting like a girl. That is what a punk says. Cant defend themselves so claim they are the victim.
And if anything was said in the real world face to face.., nothing would happen. Because the person would be smart enough not to approach me in the first place.
You're in such denial with this post above that you are a social drinker. NO you have a problem.
giardap 3 weeks ago
Linker........
I find it hard to believe dehydration would effect either of these things, given I am Irish, drink heavily (and happily) and enjoy getting the hangover horn every weekend. (no homo)
"drink heavily (and happily) and enjoy getting the hangover every weekend"
you idiot social drinkers dont drink heavily and get hangovers. Where you too drunk to remember this. like you post on tren that made you act like an ass and would want to beat your boyfriend/girlfriend.., whatever you are into.
You think you are the smartest guy in the room but you are just a drunken fool.
Stop being a liar and idiot. Stop following me around. GTFU and get help. Being Irish is not an excuse.
Why are you even on eroids. Obviously you are washed up, anti-steroid, and dont even train.
Go on some home brewing forum and try to act smart there.
You own an apology to the whole eroid community for lying and being a hypocrite!!!!!
Crikey, the force is not strong with this one.
Well I dont really get hangovers, thats being honest, not that often at least, relatively rarely. I tend to hydrate and I tend not to drink to the point where I am suffering the next day.
Do I drink heavily... well compared to my french and spanish mates yes, but compared to the kiddies who binge drink no I dont.
Compared to a tee totaler, well yes. I dont know if that clarifies things for you.... but, if you are too god damned DUMB to understand what that means, then PFO ya little tren junkie, go take your cheque drops and pop a vein on someone else!
Now gear bag, as I keep saying to you. Stop trolling me please, it's very effeminate. Get your estro checked ya little woman-man
jayiskYou illiterate punk you keep following me. Try working out instead of following me with your anti-steroid nonsense.
Why are you even on eroids?
What steroid do you take..., birth control pills?
jayiskMore of your lies:
"giardap 2 months ago
Yes. But it is largely due to a pre-existing condition where you suffer from heightened emotional states.
Some say; if you were an asshole before, you will be an asshole after - which is sorta true. But, people with anger issues, are suffering something.... which is hard to stomach if they do something to you.
I get roid rage..,"
"But it is largely due to a pre-existing condition where you suffer from heightened emotional states."
Yeah thats the PTSD you mention having not roid rage. PTSD causes hyper vigilance. symptoms include: abnormally increased arousal, a high responsiveness to stimuli and a constant scanning of the environment for threats.
Seems you liked your drugs too. Do you smoke cigarettes as most drinkers do. Sure that would be healthy.
Sure after your "social drinking hangovers" the next day you take a handful of benzos to make it through the day.
You have met the criteria for the 3 reasons i posted why people blame steroids for roid rage or their poor behavior.
Such a lying punk. I know you dont like replies that "stroke ego" you weak minded fool.