+ 55 ESTROGEN AND TEST
I wanted to pop in a quick post about how important estrogen levels are during and off cycle as it pertains to your ability to achieve and maintain goals. I've touched on this before but as I get more and more questions about it in PM I realize its worth another reminder.
So we see people say things like, "I just feel flat or sluggish or I'm not achieving and my test level is very high, whats going on"? Very often the first thing you hear is "my reseptors are smoked or burned out or full or spent etc..." My first question as they report their through the roof test and bad results is "what was your estradial number?" Oh, its only 100 or 150. So there is the problem....as estrogen rises so does se hormone binding globulan. SHBG is a binder that follows around estrogen in numbers and its only job in life is to rob and bind test to save for a rainy day. The only problem there is that the rainy day never comes. This means your high test number doc gave you is not very relevent. If over half of your test is being robbed then you are getting half the benefit of you on or off cycle test and that spells failblog to your goals.
Keeping estro in check is not only as important as keeping test high, it may be more important in the overall picture. If you take off cycle bloods post pct even, and the estradial number is high, take your AI at a half tab eod for a couple weeks and get it under control, its robbing you. Yes , you can take your AI off cycle for short spirts in order to maximize your natty test levels and make them matter. This does not mean we want them too low thinking "even more benefit". Its not, estrogen is a very important hormone in your goals. And should be kept in the 28-50 range ballpark and really only "killed" in a pre-comp where one wants to dry out. when you see numbers over 80 you are hurting in the test department no matter how high test level shows to be....did not even touch on all the other nasty shit high estrogen drags around with it but you get the point here, check yourself, before you wreck yourself bitchezzzzz! PEACE OUT!
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Also ais really help you to stay mean and lean
There are also guys running "letro only cycles". Because The male body produces estrogen mainly by aromatising test to estro, so if estro is low The body produces more test
good stuff..lots of help for me crasping how important AI are during cycle... thanks man..
AnonI wish I was as smart as you with the numbers. I take natural chrysin daily it helps fight estrogen and anxiety but it gets expensive if you buy quality like jarrows. I thank you for your stuff , I'm not intelligent in that area wise. Thx for sharing that cause I read it all
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkAnonThe classics never get old homie.
sexymexy: noted.
learn something new every time i read you bro. +1 thanks
hey tread im 5 weeks in on my cycle, and running formeron at two pumps a day (2ml) starting to get aching joints in the shoulders, wrists and back, should i lower the dosage for a bit until the aching gets better?? my libido is still good but not like it was at the start of the cycle. i also got adex but the formeron is doing real well at keeping the water retention down, i blew up real bad way before i thought i needed to start running an ai, looked like a sumo!! bloods arent easy to get where im from cos of tight aas laws. so any advise would be helpful from a guru!!!!!!!!
Aching joints means your estrogen is tanked. Reduce the formeron to 1 pump a day to see if the aches go away. Also the lower sex drive is a result of low estrogen
UPnSMOKEHow does one to about figuring out their aromatization rate? If I'm using a bunch of shorts to kick I blow up with acne fast. Is it merely experience and keeping a journal? Get the timing down and know your body? If I know its fast can i start early or do I still wait for three weeks like its recommended?
GearofWarSo Tread, how does one go about raising their estradiol levels? I strongly believe that my estradiol levels are in the dumper due to multiple symptoms, some you've mentioned, others not so much. I do feel "flat", unmotivated, depressed, super dry skin, and achey joints that have never ached before. P and I were talking about this in my Proviron and low estro thread. I've been using the Provi for about 3 weeks at 50mg/day. I've stopped the Mesterelone yesterday to see if that'll help. Whatcha think? Thanks.
tread-mI doubt seriously you threw your estro in the dunper soley on provi so if running an AI simply cut it for a couple weeks then bring It back half dose.
point well taken.thank you for that.
AnonI thought proviron would be a better compound to run than an ai as far as keeping estrogen levels low?! Or does proviron only prevent the conversion where as ai's like aromasin remove the estro? Maybe one could run proviron the whole cycle and only use an ai to lower the estro levels in the beginning?!
proviron, mast etc are only mild ai's. Some people are able to get away with it because they don't have a high conversion rate or aren't using much test. But those who get estro sides or gyno/pre exisiting gyno it's generally not advised to rely on something like proviron as an ai to control estrogen. But it's an individual thing unless you're running high doses of test which proviron alone would most likely not cut it. I wouldn't rely on it solely as an ai, but it is awesome at freeing up more test (binding to shbg) and increasing libido.
Putting it really simply and without too much detail. Proviron binds to the aromataze enzyme which lowers the conversion rate. Similar with adex. Aromasin is a suicidal ai which kills estrogen. IMO aromasin is the best ai, doesn't affect lipids as much and I find it to be the most effective.
AnonOk but if adex prevents conversion wouldnt it infact keep test levels higher? Being the overall priority
Well yes the overall priority is keeping estro at a normal range and avoiding all it's nasty sides which a part of it is shbg doesn't increase as much as well meaning more free test in your system.
AnonOk.. So maybe running aromasin the whole cycle and through pct better!? It would still be beneficial to throw some adex in maybe midway between pins at a small dosage just to free up some test wouldnt it? Maybe im tryin to convince myself adex is the way to go just because its soo much cheaper?! Cheers for the advice mate im learnin alot from u guys
either adex or aromasin is fine throughout cycle. They work in different ways but do the same thing. Depends with what pct protocol you're going with but there's no need to have an ai in pct if you've run it throughout your cycle. If adex is cheaper for you then go with that, start with 0.25 mg eod and go to 0.5 eod if estro sides appear.
Don't mention it, all here to help each other out mate ;)
That's for the post! Very informative. Learn something new everyday!
Keep it up
thats the most education i ever had!
tread-mLol...thanks brother.
AnonGreat post T. I can definitely see where I'm not get the full benefits of the Test. Hopefully my ai will be here Monday and I can begin to get that under control and move forward. Again, great info man!!!
Tread, i went back to get my blood tested again (last time was 2.5 weeks ago, i had an estradiol of 102, this was on .25mg of arimidex e3d). I've been on 12.5mg of aromasin ED since the last blood test and my levels now are 71 estradiol. so it's an improvement, but i've still got 30 to go to be at the high end of normal range. My question is do you think i should change supplier for my AI/PCT? Should 12.5mg of aromasin ED had more a significant effect on my levels than just a 31 point drop? (granted that is almost 33% reduction) Should i bump it up to 18.75mg of aromasin or go with a full 25mg for the next few weeks and then get tested post cycle? Thanks.
AnonHey Tread, First thank you for this and all the other great info and advice you give.
I think Ive got a pretty good handle on how the AI's work , why we take them and what they do for you in the immediate. What I have a little confusion on is when I hear things like "killed" or "Suicide for estrogen". I see info that tells me just wiping all your estrogen out would be very bad too. So when they say "Estrogen killed", does that always mean in the imediate ? Or does that mean forever ? Is it possible to shut down the production of estrogen in the body permanantly or will there always be some from the conversion of test ?
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkUFOJust to add to what tread said, your estro does come back very quickly if you kill it. This just happend to me as I had insanely high estro levels so I started taking letro at 2.5mg a day. So my sex drive came back then went away again so I figured I had killed my estrogen. I then doesed my letro at 1mg eod and feel 10x better so it does come back quick brother, just dont stop taking an AI all together like tread said cuz youll have a estro rebound and be right back where u started.
tread-mNo bud its temporary and often an accident until someone finds their sweet spot in usagee. Some wikll kill it on purpose pre-comp to get very dry,grainy, shredded pot roast after a carb depletion for some time. Key is start low in cycle such as even 6.25 aromasin eod and rife the train a bit o watch for sides that indicate less or more and of course, no substitute for bloods to helpp roladmap your use. Its all terminology though such as I may say, ok we have you shredded and comp is in 2 weeks, lets "kill" that estrol. Its coming back and there you can even low dose AI once it does because a kill is often followed with a mega rebound. Such as if you killl estro with letro for gyno reversal, you then want a low dose AI coming off the letro run to prevent mega rebound and new flare up.
AnonThank you Tread, Thank you UFO.
This reminds me of adjustments while tuning carburetors. Some guys will just start to turn the screws wildly and get further out of whack. So with body function I will try to remain patient and make slow adjustments too.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkAnoni saw the title of this thread and thought, "wow. that's a fucked up cycle."
tread-mLmaoooo....its not bad with an AI !
What's the name of the blood test? Is it "Total Estrogen?" Thank you in advance.
at privatemdlabs it's the female hormone panel. you are specifically looking for a test that measures estradiol (E2) levels. the female hormone panel measures E2 and serum testosterone, plus you get your standard whole blood panel.
tread-mThanks brother, I don't track these so nice looking out!
i'm trying to find that sweet spot with AI usage. The arimidex i was using wasn't having much of an effect, i was taking 0.5mgED and i still had puffy nipples and no signs of low estro. I received aromasin a couple of days ago and have taken two doses so far of 12.5mg. Already, the joints in my fingers are aching and i think i'm peeing out a lot of my water weight. I might need to bump the aromasin down to 6.25mgED, it's definitely some powerful stuff. I'm getting my blood retested in 8 days to check on my estrodiol levels. At the 6 week marker, having taken arimidex 0.25mgE3D, my estrodiol level was 102 (i posted my bloods after i received them). Once again, thanks Tread for all the time and effort you put into making this site a truly wonderful resource. What we're doing is not a joke and there are long term negative consequences if done incorrectly.
tread-mNice brother and yes, aromasin IMO far. Etter product and will not have those immune issues many experience with adex. If doing bloods I might roll the half tab eod going in just to get a good idea of whether or not thats a good place. If holding water limit your salt and increase water intake and combined with your aromasin you should find a nice place.
phil113kgHi Tread, just wanted to give you a heads up on my blood situation. I got a letter from the blood bank and they reported to me that I had a very low iron in my blood which was the first time ever in my life. They encouraged me to see my doctor to get that looked at before another attempt of giving blood. So I saw him and he sent me to get my blood test and it came back lower than he expected. So he put me on iron pills to see if that might help bring me to norms. So far one week into the treatment and some of my appetite has returned and I don't feel as run down as before. The symptoms of low iron can look like high estrogen which I thought it was in my case and it turned out to be something else.
Thanks! This is somthing I need to look into I've been feeling anemic lately and I thought it was my estro which I'm sure some of it was. But I have since killed my estro and felt great except dried up my joints badly. But I have been feeling anemic lately low appetite lethargic and just plain tired. I never thought about my iron count. This has happened to me before from an internal bleeding issue years ago and now I think about it I feel the same. Dude I'm glad you brought this up I have iron pills stashed away somewhere I will be looking for them later.
You doing alright buddy?
phil113kgYeah man. Sorry for not responding to your PM. Will do so soon.
Tread I have been reading and researching here forever and your informative post are so helpful. Thanks so much. What a great article, I'm referring many peeps to it, hoping they will do more research.
UFOOne thing I did not know estrogen could do, is make you fucking weak!!! Holy shit. I mean I do have freakish estro levels of 9000(no joke) but I lost 6 reps on my flat bench. I dont know if it seriously makes you loose weight or just the mental lack and laziness are doing it but it fucking sucks!!
It turns you into a slug dude. Mine were Hella high and I was sluggish and acting like a dam woman on the rag then I overdosed my bro by accident and wiped the shit clean energy levels came back strength came back and then the dried joints and tendons started hurting from to much aromisin and not enough estro. There is a very fine balance of estro you have to keep in check. Im learning this now because I practically wiped mine out and now I can barely walk because my tendons and joints are so sore. So far it's been 4 days since taking any aromosin and I'm noticing my joints and tendons are not as painful. Its definitely a hard lessened learned. I really should be taking more test to understand exactly were my levels are. But my body is telling me that my estro is way to low at Tue moment. This is weird science!
UFOYea man its a pain but you honestly have to get bloods constantly to know for sure. Hell I wasnt even going to get an estrogen test but said fuck it and got it while a got a testosterone test and I was at 3000. Then I had to check again a week later and was at 9000. Now I gotta keep checking like weekly until I get into the normal range. And on top of that every cycle you need a different AI protocol depending on what compounds you are running and how long. Sheeet this estrogen is as important as your testosterone levels
great read.. the main thing I keep hearing is to keep everything in the right range to get the benefits you want.
Hey man: Law of attraction.
I am 6 weeks into a Cylce of (1000 mg Test E + C, 500 mg Deca, 750iu HCG, and Nolvadex per week). Yet I am not feeling up to snuff (tired, no libido, moody, depressed, lack of focus, etc.)
Ive started questioning the gear since it is a new source for me and not the way I normally go: UGL domestic. But in all fairness I cant do that until I find out what
is going on inside. Besides there are 4 other guys on my team using the same gear and are loving it, getting large, and running around all confident.
So off to the lab I am going. From there I can see if high estrogen is my problem which I suspect it is. Last cycle I ran proviron and it kept everything balanced for me.
I have some on hand but I want to know what the issue is before I start shoving more stuff in my body. This way I can learn from it and not just guess.
I am getting my tests from HealthOneLabs who are very cheap with discount code "wellness10", for anyone without Obamacare like me.
PPTP!
I hit this same wall recently. I got a hold of some good aromosin and dosed it at 25mg ed for a week then backed off to 12.5 eod. It was a huge difference pulled out of my funk in a little over a week.
I was running bad adex with cycle and I dived into an estrogen pool and felt the same way you are.
I'm no pro but I was always in the understanding that Nollvadex is used during pct not on cycle. Adex and aromisin are different estro binders then nollvadex and chlomadex. That's why normally on cycle we run aromisin or adex because it helps control type estrogen not just shutting it down like nollvadex or chlomadex would. Like I said I'm not a pro so you should look these chemicals up.
I confess I have procrastinated the shit out of getting my bloods. I was using the nolva since I didnt have any exemstane on hand (aromsin) but I never had any issues with gyno so i cut it out. I also dropped the HCG for now and will add it in later.
The HCG hits fast and I think that is a contributer to estrogen (TreadM)? I feel a whole lot better. I am in the process of getting some caber and aromasin and will follow your advice(s). I will never do deca again with out it.
I will get my bloods done but i think a complete physical is in order and I want everything checked, liver, kidney, ect.
By the way, winstrol blocking progesterone true or false? and are the sides worth it if does?
I'm not sure about winny blocking progesterone I wouldn't trust it that and winny should only be ran for m4-6 weeks really other wise you might not have any joints left. I accidentally overdosed my aromisin and fucked up my estro levels my body was hurting joint and tendons were dry and painful right now I'm pulling out of it with some NPP and this chick gave me some estro pills I took half of one and can feel my estro come back. It's weird but I don't ever want to go through this again. We have to have some e estro in our bodys.
Ive had all kinds of stuff happen on my journey but Ive learned the most during these. Ive had success with 12.5 mg of aramosin ed but got lazy on this cycle. I usually am well planned out with all I need.
My shoulders are a mess. Thats why I mess with deca other wise I wouldnt. How much aromasin were you taking? You became the men of all men with absolutely no estro.
Even god like.
I was accidentally dosing arom at 50-70mg ed for a week then 12.5ed for a week then 12.5eod and then I felt like shit. Body wise. I ache joints hurt like hell can't walk shit like that. It's coming back but it's definitely something you do not want to do. NPP helps and these estro pills I cut in half help I can feel my joints lubing and tendons hydrating again. I would really listen to tread bro 6.25arom eod. Man you do not want you estro to low. I learned the hard way I hope I pull through.
tread-mGlad you're getting bllods, they should roadmap all of our pesonal habits. I would say consider a minimum maint dose of 6.25 aromasin eod here and as well, I like to run the low level dose of cager every 3 days as well. I ran deca many times over the yrs without an AI and my big problem with any 19 is I can't gegt off. Lose sensitivity at the shroom even though the wood is good. This causes me to be the energizer bunny but no fireworks. Some will experience a different form of deca d*ck that can be limp or just have no desirem. The low dose caber is part of the cycle in my view when 19's are in the mix. Let us know what you find brother.