+ 3 Advise on my results and how to improve my natty test
Hi.
I’m 38
93kg
6’1”
Approx 15% bf
Cycled between the ages of 29-35
Been some time since I’ve been in this forum. Looking for a little help.
I gave up cycling steroids about 2.5 years ago. Ran a PCT etc.
I became really demotivated and haven’t gone to the gym regularly until a few months back.
I realised I had to sort myself out and I’m back lifting and have a high fat/protein diet with little carbs and very little sugar. I’ve also given up drinking alcohol as I was drinking about 3 times a week.
I went to my doctor (NHS UK) and got a blood test for my testosterone. The results are;
Serum testosterone 12.1 nmol/l
Serum TSH 1.14 mU/L
The testosterone level seems low to me so I went back to the doctor but he says it’s fine and no more action should be taken.
This forum has always been my source of information about this stuff so please give me your opinion.
Would it be worth running a PCT of clomid/ HCG?
What level would I be looking at TRT?
Thanks for you help in advance
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Another update. Completed 6 weeks of only clomid at 50mg/d. I decided to stick to clomid therapy as I was already on it. Thought I’d see through at least 6 weeks to see the results. Hope this is some light at the end of the tunnel.
Blood test came back as follows, followed by the range;
FSH 4.57 iu/l 1.5-12.4
LH 4.77iu/l 1.7-8.7
Oestradol 109pmol/l 41-159
Testosterone 23nmol/l 8.64-29
Free test calc 0.402nmol/l 0.2-0.62
Prolactin 134mu/l 86-324
All in range.
I believe this is good news but I’m unsure what to do next.
I think I should either, reduce my clomid dose to 25mg/d or 50mg every 3 days?
Or is this the time to stop it completely, allow it to clear from my system and retest?
Also if I was to carry on, do I need a small dose of aromasin?
Completed my second blood test after 6 weeks of HCG. I have run out of HCG now and I’ve switched to clomid at 50mg a day.
The results were 9.1nmol/l (260ng/dl) so even lower than last time after 3 weeks of HCG.
Oestrogen is still low 34.4nmol/l
I’m unsure if it’s worth carrying on with the clomid. If I’m right in thinking the HCG is making my nuts produce testosterone and the max they will do is 9-13nmol/l that’s not great at all.
So if my FSH and LH rise up, I’ll still not make enough testosterone anyway.
Would really appreciate some input here on what would be my next move. Should I get more HCG? Carry on with clomid and re test in a few weeks? Go back to TRT and call it a day for my balls??
Something not making sense about what you did/where you ended up. 1 month ago nearly 400 now half nearly.
Doesnt add up.
Could you lay out your last 6 months, exactly
Try be as accurate as possible as it should give enough info to make a good guess...
Include test, free test, estro, shbg if you have the data - beside each stage they were taken at...
Hi, thank you for your time.
I’ll try my best buddy.
The first half of the year I was running 125mg/week of testosterone U. Had bloods done in May. Test was 26.5 nmol/l
I had bloods done again 22/6;
FSH and LH <0.3 obviously low.
Oestradiol 76.1nmol/l mid range
Test 32.6 slightly over range
Free test 0.746 over range.
Prolactin mid range
I then reduced my test U to 200mg (instead of 250mg) every other week to bring down my test levels.
Last shot of test U 200mg was 23/9. Nothing for two weeks.
I then ran test P at 100mg a week spit into EOD injections to see me up to HCG.
3 days after last test P (24/10) I started HCG spit into 3 doses of 1500ui a week. Monday/Wednesday/Friday. Also used about 6.25mg aromasin every other day.
Mid HCG (3weeks in)
Bloods taken 19/11;
FSH/LH <0.3 low out of range.
Oestradiol 36.1pmol/l little below range.
Test 13.5nmol/l
Free test 0.263
Reduced my aromasin to 6.25 twice a week.
End of HCG (6 weeks in)
Bloods taken 2/12;
FSH 0.57
LH0.63
Oestrodial 34.4pmol/l
Test 9.01nmol/l just in low range
Free 0.159 low
Free androgen index 23.59 ration (low)
Prolactin in mid range.
Carried on HCG till 4/12
Started clomid 8/12 at 50mg first two days at 100mg. No Aromasin.
Still taking 50mg per day of clomid.
Plan is to get tested again 5/1/21
Ok cool.
So its like this... To do this properly, you let everything drain first, then move to the next stage and test.
What you did was start hcg before the test was drained. Your body fights against what you are doing every step of the way. Ypu didnt do it properly... Same as running pct while still on cycle. (Test takes months to clear, even shorts... The body takes even more time after to come back online and settle.… Pct meds take sges to clear too)
It might seem anal (no homo), but to do it properly, you need to do it properly.
You have 4 choices. 1 keep yoyo'ing. 2 start again, do it properly. 3 stay on clomid alone for the next 6 - 12 months. 4 go au natural, time is your friend
But... Whatever you decide, you really should stop fucking around.
Thanks buddy. Option 2 or 3 is where I’d go. Would you see an advantage to dropping the clomid and running HCG again, over just continuing on with the clomid?
Its not about advantages. The hcg is to prove your nuts work. To do that you must let the exogenous test clear fully because you dont want to see a false compounded result.
You are likely only getting there now.
You would also need to let the clomid drain too, to start back on the hcg. The less conflicting messages the system has, the more likely the cascade is to start on time etc.
Mate. This could all take you around a year to do properly and test results the right way.
You need to decide what you want to do.
1, methodologically try to restart each system and test it.
2, aim to boost natural test with clomid for a longer term.
The other thing to remember is, regardless of ranges, take note of how you feel. If you feel good at 2-300 natural, then it doesnt matter what the number is.
Thank you so much for all your help and putting me straight. It means a lot. Glad people like you are on here to help people like me. Have a great Christmas mate
Stay in touch man, let me know what you decide and how you are getting on.
If you need to talk things out, pm me
Happy Christmas geezer, have a good one
Hello. Since the below restart therapy which I believe I messed up, I went onto self administering testosterone to myself and had regular blood test to stay in range. I did this for a year.
As other always say on here, it does get old quickly so I thought I’d give the re start therapy another shot, doing it right this time. It’s my last ditch attempt to avoid self administering testosterone for life.
I’m in the 4th week of HCG at 1500ui x3 a week. Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I have also been taking 6mg of aromasin with each jab to keep oestrogen in check.
I’ve just had my first bloods to see how I am doing;
Total testosterone is 13.5nmol/l or 389ng/dl. 9-29 nmol/l is the range. In range but I’d like a little more.
Oestrogen is a little low at 36.1nmol/l. Range 39-159nmol/l.
My plan is to increase HCG to 2000ui x 3 a week to increase my testosterone production and reduce the aromasin to 2x 6mg a week to increase my oestrogen.
What do you think?
I then intend to get bloods done in 2 weeks to see where I am at and make the switch to clomid to increase my FSH and LH.
Any additional advise would be appreciated.
How to these bloods look half way through this process?
Thanks.
Hello again.
I completed the below restart therapy earlier this year. 6 weeks of HCG and then 6 weeks of clomid.
I felt really good during this time. I didn’t get bloods during this process and I’m not going to make excesses to the good people of eroids why I didn’t. I should have done.
Anyway, I’ve got my bloods done a couple of months after and they are basically exactly the same results as before I did the therapy.
Total test is 11.1nmol/l which is 320 ng/dl
Free test is 0.226 nmol/l range 0.2-0.62
LH 2.71 range 1.7-8.6 IU/L
FSH 2.07 range 1.5-12.4 ou/l
I went to the doctors (NHS) and basically was told that they won’t even bother testing me. ‘Not an NHS problem’ was the exact wording.
Now, I have some test undecanoate and I’m thinking I need to treat myself and do my own blood tests etc.
Thoughts on my results or any suggestions?
Appreciate you help.
So what exactly did you do. Please detail the entire protocol with dosages etc. The fact that you didn’t get blood tests done is a big problem because the whole point of using the HCG is to prove that your nads are still able to produce testosterone and in sufficient quantities. Without the blood tests we have no idea if your nads work and if the clomid was even able to do its job. And then if it was you didn’t do further tests to make sure you were dosing it for long enough for your axis to recover although we can assume if your nads do in fact work that you didn’t run it for long enough. As you can see just too many assumptions. Oh and I assume this was all Pharma HCG and clomid right?
So now what to do. I see a few options:
Thanks for replying bud.
Should of got those tests done. Feel like I’ve wasted months with my complacency.
All the meds were pharma grade. No UGL
I did 6 weeks of 3x1500ui hcg split mon/wed/fri
Waited a week and then 6 week of 50mg clomid ed.
Felt really good during this time.
This finished mid June.
Can’t believe my hormone levels are exactly the same as before I started.
So you didn’t follow Giardap’s plan he laid out for you below? And therein lies the issue. I have no doubt your balls work and the HCG stimulated them to produce testosterone but also a whole bunch of estodial too. No blood test so you didn’t know. You felt good (probably from the estrodial as much as the testosterone) so you just rolled with it. You didn’t manange your estodial and given how suppressing estrodial is the minute you stopped the clomid and probably before boom no more signalling, no more testosterone, estodial lowers and you’re back to square one. Well thats what I suspect has happened.
So now over to you. What are you going to do? Try again or go on some form of trt for life? It’s up to you bud you have all the info you need. I’m not sure I can help you much more. If you do try again I strongly suggest reaching out to giardap and seeing if he will work with you every step of the way - monitor bloods and make dosage adjustments to HCG, clomid and your ai (aro). I’m sorry but I just can’t make that commitment to you right now I have too much going on with work and in my own life.
Good luck though!
Thanks again buddy. I’ll PM him and see if he’s willing/ has the time to help me
Try a restart therapy first but you can probably forget the NHS helping with that, maybe some of our UK brethren will chime in as a couple of the best of us are now TRT etc and have been through the NHS rigmarole.
If you do a decent restart though, you need to do it properly and measure bloods properly with medichecks or what have you, but at several points in the process.
I can help you put a plan together if you want, but only if you commit to the private bloods (this is your health we are talking about) - and only if our UK bro's like Dacky or Kibby feel it wouldnt mess you up with the NHS if it ends up down that road.
I’m on this line of thought myself. Was thinking a restart program and I was looking into it last night. If I’m honest, I hadn’t heard of it before as I’ve been off this forum for nearly 4 years as I was trying to give up my cycling days. I don’t remember this being a thing back then but I wasn’t looking for it I suppose.
I couldn’t find a difinative protocol. The suggestions varied wildly in dose but from what I could see it was basically a long period of HCG followed by tamoxifen with bloods being drawn at intervals and a small dose of AI depending on blood results.
I already have a test kit from medicheck sitting in my kitchen ready to go.
Thats it. Online PCT's are bastardised versions of the original which is actually a restart therapy for AAS users. The endo world conference in 2015 published TRT and alternatives advice, first time I think I saw it mentioned formally, but still not being done much from what i see.
Nolv?...Better to use clomid. you can use clomid and nolv but i definitely would not recommend using nolv with an ai alone. process is as you describe:
Starting point: No exogenous hormones in body. This means none of the 2 week bullshit from last shot, it means 5x half life of compound which is hard for someone low T, but if you start this with compound active, you're gonna fail a bit. You see all the talk of not recovering from pct, losing a little at a time, etc etc... well it is down to this. Restart therapy is the absolute complete opposite of that ideology.
Duration determined by bloods, also note estrogen as ai may be needed to prevent further shutdown leading into phase 2. Phase 1 can be 3 weeks, or up to 6 weeks.... bloods determine at end of 3 weeks.
Phase 2 at the pituitary can only commence once end of phase 1 bloods confirm the hcg has stimulated the nuts enough. ai usage determined by bloods also. (be prepared to continue hcg to 6 weeks and test again, if needed....
This should be to 6 weeks, but getting bloods at 4 weeks is a good idea see if LH is at about the right level, test and estro need monitoring, estro can creep anytime it is made in the nuts, so use bloods to judge ai usage but you probably wont need an ai for the first part of clomid therapy once hcg has already cleared.
If test is too high, and lh fsh still need to rise just lower the 50mg dose to 25mg and continue, needing to monitor lh as it raises... this process can take a long time and it can be fluid.
Once lh and fsh levels are up in the normal range you also need to be sure test and estrogen are good too.
Phase 3
(A note on nolvadex.... there is no clinical benefit to using more than 20mg.)
So forget all the old PCT's etc, forget old durations etc. This is a simple process, but equally simple to fail.... can only be proven with bloods and takes a few months to do successfully.
+1 for dr Giardap
Thank you for this. I though nolva was a strange choice but I assumed that maybe things had changed since I last looked. Saw it on ‘t nation’ I think.
I may well stock up on this and give it a shot.
No worries fella.
Nolv is a part of the original PCT. It is more effective as a SEM at the titties (per breast cancer use), whereas clomid is more effective at the pituitary (per off label use in men since the 80's but more recently formally in treating hypogonadism in clinics).
If this goes well and gets you close to 650+ then check out my forum on improving natural levels. Think post PCT therapy lol. Its under my profile.
Oh and please have a chat, before you do anything, with Dacky and Kibby and see what they think about doing this privately, without NHS. Have a chat with them, they are really decent fellas.
O that’s your post. I’ve been reading that post for ages. Great info on there. Ive been following parts of that. Double thanks.
No worrie sman,
Oh Growmore is another lad you should chat to about this
I would what others recommended below...get private complete labs done and go from there!
I suppose I’d need to give myself another month to let the ester full clear from the shot I took last week. Don’t know why I didn’t wait.
Hi,
This is an update. It’s one year since I posted the above. I’m now 39. Been working really hard in the gym and my diet has been decent.
I’m at 91kg and my BF is 14%
I saw the Endo and they re tested me about 8 months ago. My total T went to 13nmol/l
I figured I was on the mend through all my hard work and thought nothing more of it. That was a mistake. I should of continued blood tests.
I gradually realised I still felt very much a shadow of my former self and when the thought of sex didn’t inspire me I realised I could be in trouble.
So I got retested and the results came back at 12nmol/l total T. They don’t test for anything else.
I am really dishartened as I’d been trying so hard for 14 months and it’s been nearly 4 years since I cycled. Without intervention I think 12nmol/l is my lot.
The NHS will not touch you at these levels but I feel like I don’t want to live with, what I consider low T.
I went home and found an amp of test in my cupboard and took it. 250mg of enantanate. I know this isn’t a TRT dose. It was more of a moment of weakness on my part.
I realise this sounds foolish but I just wanted to see if the test would make me feel right again. As a kind of experiment.
In 24 hours I felt happier. My muscles feel full and my sex drive is up. I feel like I can think clearer too? Is this placebo at this point??
Now I feel like I’m at a crossroad and I’m not sure what to do.
Do I run a TRT on my own? If so, do you have a starter protcol to get my figures in the right ball park. Obviously blood test to dial in the figures after.
Do you think I would see any results with a combination of SERM’s and HCG? I’m 40 this year so would this be realistic?
Don’t think the NHS is going to be helping so that’s not a working option.
I appreciate you reading my post.
Thank you in advance for any help.
That’s not foolish by any means bro we’ve all had moments of weaknesses. Before making a suggestion about trt, how are your stress levels currently?
No stress really. Work and life is fine. Good job, steady marriage, healthy kids etc.
Hormones are incredibly tricky in my mind. Low T is hard to spot as the symptoms come on so gradually.
I realised over time that I didn’t desire sex that much and when I did give it a go erections were not completely full. That’s what made me go back to the doctors thinking I had a problem still.
Got you. Well if you have no major stressors and feel the way you do then your probably accurate. I can’t read your bloodwork though as in the US we use ng/dL. 250-1100 is about the healthy range. Anything below 250 is considered low T for us.
It’s 348ng/dl = 12nmol/l
Doctors referred me to an Endo. Thanks for all you help
Good news fella. Can you go private?
As a last resort I could pay. I have no existing cover mate
Ok mate. Go with the NHS and really research those guidelines I sent you so you can inform the endo if needed. Best of luck!
Thanks again bud. Means a lot
Hi. I’ve kept training hard and dieting. Everything is going ok. Had my bloods re done privately. Please can you comment on the results as my testosterone is low especially ‘free’ testosterone and I don’t know what to do from here.
Thanks,
Testosterone 11.1 nmol/l
Free testosterone 0.194 nmol/l
Sex hormone binding glob 41.1
17 beta oestradiol <18.4
Luteinising hormone 1.9IU/l
Cortisol 181 nmol/l
Follicle simulating hormone 1.52 nIU/l
Free thyroxine 18 pool/l
Follicle stim hormone 2.02 IU/l
+2 for getting the tests done. I’ve seen your PM but will answer here.
There is definitely something going on and you are showing signs of developing secondary hypogonadism. That said you are not quite low enough on a total testosterone basis given NHS guidelines and I don’t know the reference range for your test above for Free Testosterone as this is usually in pmol/l so you may “qualify” for assessment/treatment on this basis. You should post a pic of your blood test so we can see the reference ranges.
You need to convince the GP to refer you to an endocrinologist and if you have private medical insurance then use this. If you do and can then do your research and chose your endocrinologist carefully.
Good luck.
Thanks.
It says the free testosterone is calculated and the normal range 0.3-1.0 nmol/l
So I’m well below that. Is there an easy way of describing this to the doctor?
Ok that’s helpful.
Take your results in and ask the GP to run his own test on their assays. Make sure you read the guidelines I sent you on PM and accurately describe your symptoms. If in doubt print these out and highlight the relevant symptoms and the ranges for total and free testosterone.
Once the GP’s own test confirm a potential secondary hypogonadism diagnosis you must be referred to an endocrinologist. If you don’t have private insurance then you will need to wait for the NHS referral (can take a number of months) and it’s a lottery with who you get. If you have insurance get the GP to provide you with an open letter indicating you may have a problem with the signalling from your pituitary causing you to have symptoms and backed up by blood tests which require investigation. Make sure the letter is silent about libido or fertility or insurance may not cover.
Good luck.
Many thanks bud
3/4 of the way down the over 40s topic list you will see a post on how you can get a solid bump
Pay private for Total Testosterone LH, FSH, Estrodial, SHBG, Albumin and calculated Free Testosterone. Let’s see what these blood tests say but given the additional context you provided below I would suggest you may want to find an endocrinologist privately to take a deeper look. If you have private medical insurance then they should help.....they did for me. NHS is a pain with this stuff although they do prescribe my testosterone for me now following my private diagnosis.
Got it done mate. Please see above
^^ this guy knows and has been through it with the NHS.
I’ll get this sorted. The GP only offers what I got above. Maybe my company offers private care. Thanks
Drop me a PM if you want to chat about this. I’ve accepted your FR!
Thanks bud. Went I get back from work, I might pick your brain
basskiller89How do you feel overall?
Thanks for your help. It’s been a strange couple of years. With the highs and lows of cycling gone your left with depleted T and trying to figure out if this is how you were before or is this your new reality?
I do struggle with my general drive in life. I feel I was slightly depressed last year and drank a little too frequently to cover this up. This was not done knowingly. It’s only on reflection that I see this. So I decided to straighten up, no booze, fantastic diet and back to the gym. This has made a big difference. Sex drive is there but not what it was before. This could be age though.
Muscle memory in the gym means I’m rapidly lifting heavier but that’s starting to tail off now.
I don’t particularly want to be pinning for the rest of my life, but accept this will is a given at some point. I’d like to get to at least 45 before this if possible.
Nothing in life comes for free. Im paying my dues now for past mistakes.
I was wondering if along with hard work, some clomid and hcg would raise my testosterone to a level that gives me more ‘well being’, a higher sex drive etc.
Any advise would be welcome.
basskiller89I understand where you are coming from. I was stuck on a T level of 200ng/dl for the course of 3 months after a previous blast. I failed to run a proper PCT protocol assuming everything would be fine. I can say that I did not notice any difference in sense of well being or sex drive compared to being on cycle. I probably wouldn't have even known it was so low if I didn't take my pre cycle bloods. I now run a proper PCT to restore levels. I'm not one to lift super heavy so I don't notice too much in strength other than my 12-20 reps feel a tad bit easier on cycle
I would assume that if you administer an HCG + clomid protocol you will surely raise your natural T levels. Only blood work would confirm the actual rise in number. That being said, I'm not sure for how long it would remain elevated. I would say blood work every 4 weeks would be a great guide to see the swings in numbers. HCG + clomid protocols as needed may prove to be a better alternative to keeping your T levels elevated compared to early TRT
That's just my 2 cents as my personal experience with low T was unnoticeable