+ 50 How do different esters work together?
Most of us know by now how esters work and their importance in our cycles. I would like to share my opinion on how different esters work with each other to coalesce into a single stream. Different esters release free testosterone at different rates. This is common knowledge; the question is what happens to that testosterone once released from the ester? It is my intention to illustrate this question in the simplest and most straightforward way possible.
Disclaimer:
I am in no way a medical professional, PhD or pharmaceutical representative. I am an engineer and math is second nature. That being said the following post is my opinion based off of pharmacokinetic equations and theories. I have charted any and all graphs, illustrations and tables using Excel.
Abstract:
This paper is about how different esters combine to create a homogenous stream of testosterone primarily using Sustanon 250 as a basis. I will first illustrate how a basic Testosterone enanthate ester releases a daily amount of free testosterone into the bloodstream. I will then illustrate how this affects our plasma levels and leads into a taper. This will demonstrate how different esters can affect our PCT and the importance of timing to maintain and or keep our gains. Finally I hope to generate questions that will lead to more in-depth considerations on the subject.
How esters work
By now I think most of us understand how esters work. Each ester has a specific half-life that cleaves off testosterone into the bloodstream, acetate and propionate being amongst the shortest of the esters. Consequently decanoate, undecanoate and cypionate being the longer esters take more time to release free test into the bloodstream. Starting off with testosterone enanthate we know that the half-life is 8 to 10 days. This means that approximately every 8 to 10 days the original dosage is cut in half (Half Life Math). Now testosterone enanthate has a test base of 70%. This means that for every 100 milligrams of testosterone enanthate there is approximately 70 mg of testosterone. It is therefore surmised that every day 70% of the daily dosage released is freed to attach to receptors. So imagine if you will a large stream flowing through a ravine. Now imagine a tributary connecting to that stream that flows into a larger body of water. The mainstream in this case is the testosterone flowing to the receptors in our bodies and the tributary is the ester releasing free testosterone to flow into the mainstream. See illustration 1.

So for illustrative purposes let’s take a single shot of 100 mg of testosterone enanthate. Knowing what we know about the half-life of this ester at day two we would have 91.7 mg in our body. Now the difference between the 100 mg and 91.7 mg would be 8.3 mg. 70% of that 8.3 mg would be 5.81 mg of free testosterone. (At this point I would like to make it clear that we are dealing with just milligrams for the entire body, the actual plasma level is represented using the nomenclature nanograms per deca-leader or ng/dl). At day three we would have 84.09 mg of enanthate in our system cleaving off the difference between 91.7 and 84.09 multiplied by 70% equaling 5.33 mg of free testosterone and so on and so forth. So you can see that the free testosterone is 70% of the difference between day one, day two, day three and so on. See table 1.

Table 1
If we were to use the table above as an example starting with a 100 mg shot then we would see that over the course of 71 days it would release small amounts of testosterone into the mainstream daily until it reached zero. Graphically it would look like illustration 2.

Illustration 2
It is easy to see at this point how the last injection or known amount of testosterone tapers off naturally. This is sort of analogous to a steep cliff wherein one could easily fall down and crash. This is what is meant by a post cycle crash. It is the point where natural production of testosterone cannot ramp up to the previous levels introduced through extraneous injections. This leads into a proper taper at the end of the cycle mitigating the painful loss of gains due to post cycle crashes. This is relevant to our PCT regiments in that if one could calculate the amount of short ester testosterone necessary to gradually reduce or lessen the slope of the curve, we could give our bodies more time to rebound back into a homeostatic state. I will address this point shortly.
Test is test
The heading says it all. Using the theory of a homogeneous stream of testosterone we can expound on the principle that esters work individually to contribute to that very stream. What I’m saying here is that it doesn’t matter what testosterone blend or ester we use, each blend or ester releases testosterone daily or hourly even at its own rate, but it all goes to the same stream. We will use the classic Sustanon 250 as an example. Starting with Testosterone Propionate at 83% with the half-life of two days all the way to Testosterone Decoanate at 63% with a half-life of 15 days, we will see how each ester individually contributes to the mainstream. See table 2.

Using the table above and the previous analogy of a large stream running through a ravine with several different tributaries connecting to it we would get a graphical representation like illustration 3.

Illustration 3
The mainstream of test is now free to bind to other receptors. What’s important to note here is that each ester releases its own specific amount on an hourly basis until it has diminished itself to zero. So starting with Testosterone Propionate at 30 mg would take approximately 24 days to reach zero and Testosterone Phenylpropionate at 60 mg would take 44 days to reach zero followed by Testosterone Isocaproate at 60 mg would take 87 days to reach zero and finally Testosterone Decanoate at 100 mg would take a whopping 140 days to reach zero. See illustration 4.

Illustration 4 (In this graph at 90 days the amount is actually .05 mg of test, it actually takes 140 days to reach zero)
Notice how steep the slope is with only one shot this explains why intervals are spaced so closely together when running a Sustanon cycle. However, this begs the question; how much test needs to be in our system to shut down natural production? This would be a huge factor in when we start PCT.
Putting it all together
So knowing that esters release testosterone at an individual rate let’s see what a simple Testosterone enanthate cycle would look like at roughly 1000 a week for 10 weeks with a two-week Propionate taper. See illustration 5

Illustration 5
Keep in mind these graphs represent the actual testosterone in the blood and not the ester. I make this point so as not to get confused with my previous graphs on other papers.
In this illustration I’m showing a Test E cycle of 12 weeks. However, I have stopped the enanthate ester at 10 weeks. This is where it gets interesting if I were to immediately on the last day of the 10th week inject propionate to start my taper, I would see a noticeable spike above the 150 range. This is not really beneficial to us and in fact is extra shots and money. It is better in this case to start the propionate taper five days after the last enanthate shot. By using the propionate to taper we can see how much we can lessen the slope after cessation of a simple cycle which gives our bodies ample time for PCT to kick in.
I know this is way more in depth then most people on here want to get and you do not need to be able to do the math to understand these simple principles, however, by understanding how esters work together you may be able to build smarter and more efficient cycles and that's what it's all about. Right? Thank you for reading.
Other posts I have written that may help you understand the science behind this paper:
Half Life Math
Maximizing Cycles
C.H.
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I like that idea. Running another compound during the burn down phase of the test!!!
RustyhookerTypically I run dry finishers but it depends on time of year and goals. Mast, winny or someday tbol for spring. Or shorts to match longs.
PastorgainzWow, I didn't expect eroids forums to have information like this.
Great post, I've learnt a lot. Cheers for taking the time to make it.
Thank you for this breakdown
You are welcome!
ray3801Great write up brother! Would be interested to see this extrapolated out over six months with a person doing 2 shot a week @ 100 mgs of Test E
Hey there smart guy, I suck at math. Great write up.
This thread is frickin awesome.
bump.
Awesome information Havoc, thanks for sharing your knowledge bro
noob941http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3677834/ this may have been the article it was the only one i saved from that day and i think it was the arthur who was at john hopkins not the study...anyways i hope this helps brother because you certainly do thanks again
noob941Dear Mr. Havoc,
i have been running test e 250/wk since june 2013 as what i thought was a trt dose, kinda.... maybe a little hot but still no biggie. I do blood work every couple of months either through my doc or thru private labs.My first bloods showed test levels greater than 1500....couple months later 2734......i added prop for some extra hoooraa during the winter and tested a whopping 4880....i dropped the prop in dec and have been at 250/wk since then...bloods 3-14-2014 test level 3400+. So with all that being said i found a paper from a john hopkins study of cumulative effects of over lapping doses of time released meds....is this true of the long esters as well?? THANK YOU FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND TIME
Dear Mr. Noob,
I would very much like to read this paper. Can you still put your hands on it? I suspect they are very similar effects as one is a special time released dosage and the other (steroids) are released from the ester which is half life driven. The other difference is that one is intramuscular and bypasses a lot of the bodies systems for a first pass and gets into the blood stream faster as apposed to being taken orally and running through 5-7 systems depending on the drug. What I believe is happening with your dosage is that your bloods may have been at the peak at most opportune times for labs. When you added prop this obviously caused a spike but because of the short half life when you discontinued it came back down to your bodies natural response to the 250 enth a week rather quickly.
I think it's really great that you get labs done regularly and applaud you for that. It would help me better understand your labs if I knew when they were done so we have a timeline. For instance enth doesn't start reaching steady state until around week 5. If you stay at this dose regiment for a long time you will see that your levels plateau. In most all medicine that is what we want. So the labs will tell us if you were well into your steady state or still climbing the dosage curve. I have some other write ups that explain this in my article above. I suspect your first shot and the next two labs were still in the climb of your cycle and your body is taking it's sweet time coming down from December.
That being said I would consider lowering your dosage and seeing if I could achieve test levels of about 2200-2500 (this is still way above the normative standards by the way). This is so that you can continue to achieve steady gains but not over do it. When you blast you will need less gear to gain quality muscle.
Again if you can put your hands on that article I should like to read it.
noob941i am going to go back thru my history on my pc and see if i can find the article i stumbled across it and really only skimmed it as it was so comprehensive and technical, i have cut my dose in half and will draw bloods in 2 weeks, i think also the lack of continuity in source dosing may have some effect on my readings as my last 3 labs have been with 3 different sources. thank you for all you do for the community. will post the link when i dig it up....stay strong
noob941BLOODY GOOD SHOW MATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is really good writing and very well explained! Thank you for taking the time to educate. I look forward to digging through everything you write and learning. +1!
Very informative and well written! Thanks very much
Thanks, CryHAVOC. solid explanation!
Great info!
Great read bro. This is exactly what I look for when researching. Answered a lot of my personal theories!
I'm glad you found it helpful bro
Sirk1981Crazy how similar this is to my cycle. I'm starting with prop and cyp then tapering with prop in the end. Great read I'm glad you graphed it out. Now I feel even better with my cycle. Thanks Bro.
AnonFantastic read, great work on this. Thank you ! plus plus !
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkI appreciate this recommendation a lot man, it cleared a lot up for me. As I said on my post it was only an idea in theory based on my understanding of half-life and esters, not so much on testosterone, only using sustanon as an example. This really breaks it down for me and I will be recommending it for people wondering about sust, Thanks Again! +1
No problem brother! Your half-life theory was correct from your chemistry point of view. That's where I started too. I just took it one step further.
Well it definitely helped man, you clearly know your stuff. I may be hitting you up for advice from time to time.
Thanks for such an informative read. +1
Alot of interesting info to take in
RustyhookerCombo of science and real life use at work.
So my question after reading this (maybe it is a dumb one), but wouldn't the synthetic test remaining in our system for 56 to 140 days still be trying to shut down our natural production? Or is there cut off line where natty wins out the battle?
That was actually one of the questions I brought up in the post above. I asked how much test does there need to be in the system to shut down natural production? I have a theory on that and am composing another post in my mind that will touch on that. I think it has to do with the amount that is in the blood stream compared to the base level. I will post more illustrations in my next post to clarify my point.
On another note; if you asked this question then my post did its job. It spurred on more thought on the subject and led you to this very critical and valid question!
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Heading into PCT for the first time it is definitely on my mind lol. Thanks bro for taking the time to put this all together. My brain hurts a little trying to put it al together, but after a couple passes it all sinks in.
Buildbigger86Havoc, NO JOKE this is one of the best post's i have ever read in my life my friend. Seriously, thank you so much for writing this up and fully breaking the topic down in detail and with pictures chart to show visual representation, I love this man. Thank you again. Much respect on this one plus 1 for sure
Those are very gracious words 86! I am very pleased you found useful. I hope it helped explain some things.
Buildbigger86this helped me out so much because i literally have been trying to figure the calculations of doing this myself with test breakdowns and i finally was able to get the daily breakdown of test eth but it was such a bitch and still wasnt sure if i was correct, so you seriously could not of made me happier by posting this
Good read thanks for taking the time to come up with this and share!!
Good job CH!
waltrhavoc, can you do a write up on how the different chemicals bond to receptor sites and explain why some compounds will win out over test in the deciding of which one will bind?
Buildbigger86Good call Waltr that would be AMAZING. OMG i would love you havoc forever you have no idea
I can't make any promises Walt but I will tell you this....I have a list on my phone of the papers I intend to write. I go through my day like normal and when inspiration strikes or I finally solve a puzzle in my mind I write it on that list. The purpose of these write ups is to spur on more questions about what we do and to hopefully give bro science a little more credibility. I will put your question on the list and start doing research on it and develop a formal and structural thought process on it. Then I will write a post on it. I just can't promise a time frame because I have plenty of obligations. That's why if you read my posts they are about a month apart.
another +1 from me homie, awesome to see somebody qualified to put real time, research, and effort into as you say, giving bro science more credibility
i also think its bad ass you take "requests" and put em on the list to help answer questions we as a community share. keep doin your thing man!
waltrit's not like anybody is paying you to provide us with the information ;P
if you ever get a chance to do a write up on it I'm sure I'd enjoy reading it and I appreciate the stuff you've put up already. It's always interesting
TRUE COLORS.... its about time you showed the board your skills my friend... this is your time CH fkn bring it on... +3
P.S. ... from our first ever PM you have been THE most receptive member I have ever dealt with..... you nailed the diet,the cycle,understood the mechanics of everything we chatted about and then came back with THE RESULT... a fantastic productive cycle that would put most to shame... well done brother
Wow thanks Viking! I have to admit that sounds good coming from you!
I want to also thank you for the advice you gave me on this cycle! I spent a lot of time looking through yours and other senior vets old posts for valuable information that only comes from the experienced! Myself and I'm sure many others appreciate all that you and the other mods do to contribute to Eroids! Thank you.
you lost me at streams and large bodies of water +1
AnonBravo!! I love seeing the baddest muscle in the human body at work. The brain has no equal!!
Who the fuck are u? And why aren't u posting more? Lmao!!
Keep this shit coming bro. We need as many of these write ups as u can do.
Thanks sexy lol! I actually have post about three papers like this in general. Maybe not to this magnitude though.
AnonI LIKE THE POST.... THUMB UP....HEART UP
Awesome read!!!!!
Another question that is slightly off topic is..
Can hormones that are still attached to esters 'aromotise' or are they able to hold onto the aromatase enzyme whilst still being attached to the ester and then aromatise once the ester has released the hormone? Some say 'test is test' but if this is the case why do ppl generally get a leaner harder look from prop opposed to something like sustanon?! Where its widely known sust can 'blow' u up almost as if more hormone had been converted to estro...!!?