posted Thu, 02/22/2024 - 10:26
2879
Just started TRT without AI
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How many of you guys run TRT without an anti estrogen?
Have always ran an ai with my cycles but my MD said I don’t need it and shouldn’t take it if I don’t. To my surprise labs have been normal and estrogen has not been elevated but I’m only running 160 a week.
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If you keep the dosage low, keep blood levels stable through frequent injections, and aren’t eating junk/drinking alcohol you’re far better off without the ai
Everyone is different!
Labs and symptoms have to lead the way for AI use during TRT. I agree that most men do not need it, especially if you don’t carry a lot of excess body fat. However I’ve been surprised at times. That’s why labs are important.
But estrogen is important for mood, cognitive function, bone health, heart and kidney health. Remember, dropping your estrogen can decrease your HDL and raise your LDL. Arimidex and Letro are notorious for this. Seems to be dose dependent.
You don't need an AI when you are on TRT. Your test levels should be in normal range, so why would you need it?
If your test levels are not within normal range, you're not on TRT
SnackyTYeah makes sense. Just never stepped into the trt world. Always use to running 500+ so I assumed any test will raise your estrogen but if you’re under 1000 that’s still considered normal
I’m hovering around 1000 with 160mg a week and estrogen still normal
I'd try and bring it down just a bit. T levels change throughout the day. If you're getting tested in the morning when your levels are lowest, 1000 is your low end, 1000+ is your mid-range and high end. I'd shoot for 700 to 800 to be safe. You're not going to be able to feel any difference and your body will be less stressed.
My doctor was ok with me at 1200. She looked at all the other markers. I was on 100mg a week with HCG twice a week. If estrogen, RBC, cholesterol, heart rate, kidney markers, liver markers etc increased, that’s when she wanted me to adjust. I dropped to 80mg on my own just because I didn’t feel a difference. At 900 on 80 mg once a week 6 days after injection and all is good. You have to watch your body and its reaction. Everyone is different. Running 200 mg a week and managing symptoms is not good for your health.
SnackyTYou pin once a week?
I did for a year. Went to twice a week. On cycle either EOD or ED depending on compound. Feel best on twice a week with TRT.
Do you honestly believe a doctor would let his levels be at 1,000. Some freak out at 800
SnackyTWell 300-1000 is considered normal range isn’t it?
1000? No. Not a normal Doc.
Real doc? No
Trt clinic doc? Absolutely they’ll let you hover at 1300-1400 if other bloodwork comes in range
SnackyTRight. All the TRT providers I have talked to want you to be 700-1000 range
No. My doc wouldn't get me that high to "fix" lethargy and in the same breath mention it might be a thyroid condition. It was difficult to get her to go from 400 to 600 and after we did, the change wasn't that perceptible; if at all.
SnackyTOkay appreciate the feedback. I do my labs fasted in the morning. So I should go lower than 160mg a week? The reason my provider upped it is because I still felt lethargic at a lower dose
lethargic can be several other factors. Quality of sleep being one of them. Not enough water is another. Too much T (being on cycle) for a prolonged period also can wear on you, making you feel lethargic.
I'm on TRT and still feel lethargic, or tired. I'm scheduling a sleep study to see if anything is going on there. I could be narcoleptic. (which sounds outrageous but google the suspected causes)
I do 80 a week and my range is in the 600's (approximate low) That said, we are all different. Not even sure if there's a "rule of thumb" perse.
SnackyTGood points. My provider also pointed to low thyroid levels as well.
What about clomid or clomephine on trt? Is this the norm to keep the boys plump?
no
Just to avoid confusion most will need an ai on cycle, but in some cases an ai will NOT be needed for some folks on cycle depending on dosage. Now trt is different and no ai should be needed
SnackyTMakes sense. A cycle is 500mg or more of test a week. Definitely going to have estrogen levels.
+1 Yea pretty much at that dose but those estrogen levels can vary among individuals. Not like everyone will have same elevated levels across the board. But yea estro will rise.
The answer should be everyone. You shouldn’t need an AI on TRT. If you do, then your dose is too high. Or your pinning frequency is not ideal for your conversion rate. Or both. The goal of TRT is to replace test that your body isn’t producing to a natural/healthy level. Ask yourself if you know of healthy males not on TRT taking AIs…nope doesn’t happen. Same test serum levels just one is making endogenously and other is getting it exogenously.
exactly. Shouldn't need an AI if test dose is dialed in properly for your body.
SnackyTThanks for the retailer explanation: do you prefer to pin once or twice a week? And why?
One provider told me two is betrrr and another said twice lol
I prefer to pin ED. It’s all personal dictated by what you deem an acceptable trade-off of pros/cons. I don’t mind sticking myself every day injecting <0.1mls with a 30g 1/2” slin pin (which many will say pinning frequency is a con). And I get extremely stable blood serum levels. I can go up to about 400mg/wk this way and not need an AI. Smaller peaks = less available test for aromatization. But I also have higher troughs than those who pin more infrequently. Regardless what frequency/dose that works for your trt, it should not require an AI.
SnackyTDo you pin prop then?
SnackyT30g .5 pins .1ml is easy mode. Its more of trying to stay consistent for me and my lifestyle
No real reason to pin ED unless you like to pin, just chasing a number or running a short ester Test. Natural T levels fluctuate throughout the day. It's not normal to be at a high level 24/7. In the end it's taxing on your system. Honestly with C and E twice a week should be max. I also I wouldn't pin more than .5ml with the 1/2" pins. Are you pinning IM or Sub Q? Unless you're fairly lean, Shallow IM pinning isn't enough muscle tissue to hold all that oil and then I would suggest doing it on a lean delt. You risk losing oil leaking out or oil getting under the skin and causing an abscess Sub Q anything above .5ml put you at risk for leaking and getting lumps of oil and some PIP issues over time.
SnackyTSub q I like it better
Don’t even feel it go in…just like my wife tells me at night.
Doing what works for you is always the way as long as you’re healthy
SnackyTLOL! Beat up the side walls
Same here
SnackyTOh man ED pin is rough for me. I don’t rotate too many areas. But I know it’s different for everyone
Like Jock said below no need to pin everyday for trt.
You dont need every day pins on trt.
True. You and I should do this more
Y’all are such haters on my ED pinning.
O yeah...we HATE your kind!...those everyday pin guys!
But everyone should do what works for them. I can't judge anyone if it's safe and results are obtained
I’m gonna try hard to do a MWF schedule this current break on my trt dose. I just feel lost if I don’t follow my constant routine…wake up at 0600, drink 500ml of milk with 2 scoops of protein powder, pin, bathroom, cardio, shower.
My break in routine is gonna end up making me forget something…like the bathroom…then I’ll shit my pants mid cardio.
So ED pinning = not shitting your pants mid cardio. Can’t argue with the deductive reasoning
Yea don't shit your pants, that will be one nasty sight and you'll need to throw those $200 blue jeans in the garbage.
Man I don't see how you guys pin every damn day lol. But alot of guys prefer that method. So I understand the reasoning behind it, which is true. I could see troughs being at a good level. But everyday pinning is definitely not for me.
Great answers bub. I take 125mg a week and have never needed an a.i