+ 24 **19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 3: Experiment + results**
Part 1: https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/19-nor-prolactindeca-t...
Part 2: https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/19-nor-prolactindeca-t...
19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 3: Experiment + results
For anyone interested in either the 19nors are wet/cause erectile dysfunction/raise prolactin debate. This is part 3, the experiment and results which prove the data gathered in part 2, but disprove the deca only theory.
Part 1 discussed the common interweb/broscience perception that 19nor's cause prolactin to rise.
Part 2 analysed much available scientific research and gave evidence that 19nor's do not directly increase prolactin. However on a testosterone+ 19nor cycle excess testosterone raises estrogen which in excess raises prolactin. However, more questions arose, such as the need for an experiment, specifically to show how an AAS using BB'er with supraphysiological levels of 19nor is affected from a prolactin perspective.
Experiment 1
Completely uncontrolled single self-case study.
Phase 1: Nandrolone Decanoate @ 1000mg to increase to 3000mg over subsequent phases
No estrogen control, no prolactin control.
Results:
Used 1000mg nandrolone as a starting point, due to the approx 5x TRT dose of test guesstimate for aromatisation. i.e. nandroone allegedly aromatises at ~20-25% the rate of test, therefore at 20%, a multiple of 5x TRT test dose, of nandrolone (5x200mg) could serve as a start point on a mg per mg basis.
week 1 - 5, greatly increased libido, increased strength, increased vascularity, from week 2 on increased size due to nutrient retention, erectile function phenomenal. Zero increases in BP, water retention, or cognitive issues.
Week 4-5, estrogen crashed, nandrolone did not aromatise at the rate needed to function. cognitive decline, sore joints in week 4, followed by depressive symptoms, ran completely dry, muscular soreness, joint pain etc. Notably, erectile function and libido still through the roof.
Experiment proves for subject that you cannot run a nandrolone only cycle, however if you do, erectile function is not affected when estrogen crashes.
Experiment 2
Phase 1: Nandrolone Decanoate @ 1000mg to increase to 3000mg over subsequent phases
TRT dose of test @ 200mg, lowering over time to settle at 150mg test, split 75mgx2 per week. HCG used to keep testes functional.
No estrogen control, no prolactin control.
Duration: PM me for details, suffice to say long enough to fully complete experiment across different doses.
Noteworthy... No so called wet sides, no BP issues, no cognitive issues. At times struggled to keep estrogen HIGH enough. Switched off test dose at one point and solely relied on HCG but estrogen crashed.
Bloods taken at end of experiment, showing prolactin very low.
Not quite as low as if you crashed prolactin with a DA, but on the deck. Discussed with doctor who feels that the pituitary is strongly suppressed due to duration of cycle. estrogen very low, test ok for full supply to create estrogens, prolactin very low and SHBG very low.
Erectile function perfect, libido perfect.
Results:
In the case of this case study:
Nandrolone does not increase prolactin.
Nandrolone of itself does not have wet sides.
Nandrolone of itself does not cause "deca dick" or any form of erectile dysfunction.
Low prolactin did not cause any form or erectile dysfunction.
Comparison:
When compared to a high test/19nor cycle, the results from a very low test 19nor cycle are completey opposing. As part of a high test cycle, estrogen increases and therefore prolactin creeps up too.
(will upload image soon of last high test high 19nor prolactin levels which were quite high to the point of inducing anorgasmia)
Conclusions:
We need to stop thinking in terms of single compounds and instead think in terms of multi-compound cycles, cascades of effects and not single actions, if we are to truly understand what we are talking about. In a high test cycle, testosterone displaced or in excess is the culprit of wet sides and sex hormone increases.
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It does.
I was talking about your " relationship" comment.
-2 for being childish.
I pm you a week ago sorting it.
The high e causes the prolactin issues,is what you are saying,and that is being caused from the unbound test.Dont use test or use a very small dose and no gyno.I get it.
It just seemed like he was saying deca’s only activity was being turned into test.It had me confused.I agree with your assertions.Your research is pretty clear,and you are very good at it.Research that is.Plus brother keep solving problems.Next time use a surgeon on the gyno.Funny thing ,at sixteen I removed a cyst from my lip,using pretty much the same method you used.It wasn’t a good idea.I didn’t get enough margin and it came back.I then went to a plastic surgeon and he did it right,after telling me I was an idiot.
Exactly!
because nandro has a higher binding affinity, it activates the binding and transcription process before test can. So test loses the race and sits around with nothing to do, it gets aromatised to estrogen and estrogen can increase prolactin up to 20 times greater than it was. Even small increases in estro can cause large increases (relatively speaking) in prolactin. whihc is why when people take an ai like aromasin, think they are managing estro but are still above base level, prolactin still increases. Ppl then think it is independent of estro and the myth continues!!!
As for surgery... lol fool for a doctor, fool for a patient! Couldnt agree more. I took a lipoma out of my upper thigh you see, got brave! It all made sense at the time! It was a fun experiment though, but frightening when I realised the tissue had blood supply. Cauteriser saved the day but it is a messy messy foolish stupid thing to do.
damn broski you performed a surgery by your self damn ...that takes balls (no homo ) like rambo the first blood with the gunpowder damnnnn
You are the only person I know that says broski like me I thought that was my thing
Hahaha rambo first blood ! Oh the memories
Sto dimotiko perimena san trelos na to do sth thleorash haha
Respect alex
Dope
Mind providing evidence proving this: “All related receptors are signalled, remember progesterone, progestin, prolactin, are all estrogen.”
Last I checked they were different hormones, why else would I have setup estradiol, progesterone and prolactin at my last account? I’m sure they would love to save money on reagents and only run one test.
Stop being lazy and go do some basic research you look like a fool.
Both of you need to learn.
Biosynthesis buddy.
Go learn about it.
Go research conversions and cell signalling like i dod 8 years ago on here with a whole bunch of others.
Good luck.
LMAO
Still at it Flash. You look really, really silly now man.
Incapable of discussing any single point. Throwing random words like biosynthesis out there.
And now a legitimate Scientist is asking what in God's name you are talking about and you tell him he needs to research like you did 8 years ago!!
Yikes!
Oh well. Offer still stands, if you actually think any of the research/experiment and results are wrong and are capable of addressing it, we can do it in a non-confrontational way where we all might learn something. Prob need to ditch the insults and incoherent replies for it to work properly though.
Lol.
Well that’s disappointing... was hoping to have a discussion with you but you appear to only be interested in slinging insults.
Repeating biosynthesis is not an answer to your false claims I requested evidence for. The burden of proof lies on you.
I don’t need luck thank you, I’ve been a medical scientist for over a decade now kid and can tell you don’t have the experience to understand and interpret scientific literature.
Honestly I’m not sure you ever had a point in your original post as it’s hard to decider where it was between the insults. I’m not interested in participating in discussions with someone who covers up their own ignorance with insults so I’m out.
Funny the way people who are wrong react with insults and defence.
I could provide links to multilpe scientific studies but that would be to easy, from my very first response to these threads 3 years ago ive responded in a specific way.
As stated do some research and learn something.
I dont type things unless im 100 percent.
Its great to see the defensive attitude of people that are wrong or not confident enough in there research that they respond with " im out " lol.
I stand by my previous statement.
Lol you’re golden entertainment. Also love that you neg me while reinforcing my position, way to keep your calm.
Karma is like gold stars and smiley faces for pre school children, come back with something worth contributing the the board and you can earn it back.
What do you hope to acheive by jumping to his defense? There is a reason this thread and others are being ignored.
Would you like help with some key words to type on google?
Extra gold stars...
I wasn’t jumping to anyone’s defense. I made a very valid request for you to provide evidence of a claim you’re making that is currently not true. Didn’t realize you were going to be so offended by it.
Ok i respect that, my apoligies i thought you were being nasty.
Gave it back.
Above where i posted the conversion starting with cholesterol.
Research starting from there.
Cracks me up when a 30 yo calls a 33 yo "kid" when both of you are young enough to be mine.
...Also makes me feel old.
Word lol
Blah blah blah. Sorry for you Flash mate, your posts are getting more erratic.
There were simple questions, and they were answered clearly. They even afforded the grey area/middle ground where semantics often confuse the issue. Your post, doesnt actually address much at all tbh and is.... well... erratic and odd.
You are proven wrong (in calling me wrong), by a 3 stage process; opinion, by med/scientific research and by case study experimentation. It is all there in the posts. BUT... I dont think you actually know what it is you are telling me I am wrong about.
Want to do a 1 by 1 on the original questions? You can tell me what it is I am wrong about and I can go through it with evidence???
Doesn't get better/more clear than that on an internet forum. It is a shame, because you read about certain things and partly understand them, you cite facts alongside fiction, then draw batshit crazy conclusions that are just plain weird to be honest.
Now you want to ignore all of that evidence? Ignore the med lit, the studies on bodybuilders, ignore the endo evidence, ignore the case study? Well..... then YOU go off and do a nandrolone only cycle and prove the proof to be incorrect with bloods (you know... sorta like I did!)! Have at it big fella!
You think you can neg me for that?
Im not being childish or having a go at you in all your other wrong posts.
Ridiculous like a kid throwing a tantrum for not getting his way.
Grow up cunt.
You are fucking wrong.
You cannot change or alter facts.
It is exactly what it is and you are wrong.
Considering you wanna be a childish cunt i will be too.
Get too fuck you mouth on a twig!
Others will research all the key words and phrases i have posted and see that you are wrong.
I could literally neg the fuck out of you for so much bull shit you have been posting.
Im not a cunt like that.
On a personal level im cool with you.
On this level your an arrogant cunt even when your wrong.
Go research and give me my karma back.
Enough! This isn't facebook. If you cannot discuss it without losing your cool then do not discuss!
LOL
You're starting to flip a gasket there fella!
As I asked; Want to do a 1 by 1 on the original questions? You can tell me what it is I am wrong about and I can go through it with evidence???
What specifically is it you think I am wrong about?
For anyone who reads Flash's accusation of gyno lie below. This image, which I wont discuss other than via pm, shows some of kit. tat spray scissors, cauteriser (who TF would have that lying about?). missing sutures scalp etc. scar should be visible. pure butchery and unsuccessful.
As I say, I wont discuss it, but cannot stomach being called a liar. Pls no comments, just PM's if need to comment. Pls.
You are making stuff up.
I will tell you this, the account your using was a sleeper for over 3 years.
I had discussions with multiple other long standing members about it.
Anyway when you first started talking this shit because again you were pulled up about it i said to those members that your " experiments" would be bullshit, manipulated and in your favour.
You cant handle being wrong.
Just like you lying about home gyno surgery.
Dont make me dig up dirt and expose your bullshit.
Everyone knows im good at that.
Dont be the next gearhead mate.
LMFAO. And there we have it!
Okay then Flash, you say I cant handle being wrong, yet I am openly here saying, please lets discuss where I am wrong. I am not sure what else to say about that other than if you actually think a thing is wrong, address it.
Man you are so wrong about me! Sleeper accounts? I am other members from the past? Shit man, I thought my paranoia problems were bad.
You wanna to dig shit up? Come private man. I will tell you whatever you want, but dont get me confused with some other cunt.
Only a fucking pussyhole little bitch goes around mouthing off behind others backs accusing them of shit that isnt true. I had you pegged as better than that.
The answer is above.
I gave you the answer.
look again.
Nothing but erratic babble up there Flash.
As I said in PM, you want to know me, Im happy to show you I am who I am. You now know my name, you now know where I am from. Want to see a pic of me in my undies? (no homo).
You want to see the kit I used on the failed gyno surgery - I can upload pics of the kit, the little scar etc.
(as I said in PM, I am hardly going to have a fucking cauterising tool at home in the medicine cabinet just for shits and giggles now? Am I?)
BUT DONT CALL ME A FKN LIAR.
As I said here, you want to question the research and experiment; then address it properly and we can go through it bit by bit. You want to see the hospital details where bloods were performed, no problem. You want to go after individual points? lets go, fuck it we might both learn something..
Any intelligent person can pull apart research, it is easy. FFS man, the newest post on the thread might contradict my deca only conclusion. Its easy.
Lol.
Bye.
Enjoy talking to yourself.
Just like you pm.
You will just be ignored.
Nice work mate. As you know I’m flipping my test and deca beginning of April and so will see for myself. Will have bloods to compare to.
I THINK I'LL PASS ON THIS ONE! But interesting article!
Great info and excellent post. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication and Thank you for being the guinea pig. +1
Bam! That's a shitload of quality info!! Wow man thank you very much for running this trial
Always love reading your posts brother ++
Haha, respect to you as always Kibby!
Another well written and researched post.
Thanks for sharing!
Cheers Jay, hope you are doing well big man.
This was some great work, research, and self experimentation. Much respect. Would u say, deca used in experiment #2 (low test), ur hpta have an easier recovery vs with a high dose of test?
I only ask because of how I've read its shuts ur system down hard, takes months to recover, and sometimes never recovers completely. Deca being being a progestin and its ability to bind to the progesterone receptor ultimately increasing prolactin. But after seeing ur results on how it wasnt affecting prolactin maybe even natty recovery isnt so bad?
Edit::: I went and read part 2 again.. i saw u pretty much answered this question. I'm sure length of time plays a big factor, as does anything that shuts u down, but over all deca doesnt shut u down SEVERELY as most have thought.
It doesn't really. See it is a progestin and not a progesterone. A progrestin is something like 200 times weaker than progesterone at binding the progesterone receptor and will be beaten every single time by progesterone, which is actually a phenomenally good hormone for men.
The only difference between them is the esters really and how long it stays in your system. The decano ester has a longer half life and it becomes an issue when waiting for it to clear the system. Truly, you want a daily release rate of less than .2mg per day to effectively begin recovery in my guesstimation.
BOOM! Exactly right! if you go to the very first post on this thread, I put up my shbg lh fsh, 3 more hormones indicating shutdown. prolactin too in the gutter. it indicates a greater shutdown than ever, due to a longer cycle than I have ever done before. The compounds do it, and duration effectively sends the hpta to seep. Although I have kep the T part awake with HCG. Clomid will cause the H in the HPTA to wake up and GnRH will cause the P to wake up.
Cascade effects all over!
Fingers crossed for PCT, it is going to be hardcore!
Great info brother. Ive always been fighting low T (poor diet &stress) since I was 38 and I thought I was going to to add deca to my "Dont fuck with cause ur too damn old and will never be able to recover list".. Iol. But looks like I can keep my deca a little bit longer with moderation and proper planning, .. Tren, that beast is gonna have to stay on the list.. smh
+1my brother..excellent post..makes me rethink a lot of what I hear for sure..thanks man
Cheers hmm.
Nice 1, if we are thinking, we are winning. Respect.
Right back at ya brother
massive respect for your forums brother
Dope
Cheers Brosef
Oh and G'luck in the EBC man!
I just watched some videos of doctors talking about tren and it was eye opening to say the least. They all shared the same conclusion about tren. It is extremely harsh on your system and they also went on to say that it is by far the most suppressive hormone in existence and the shutdown is so hard that over 50% of recreational users do not recover their natural production or lessen it by half after the first time they use it. It also destroys your cholesterol 10 times more than regular test.
tren dick is real because it makes you hyper-sexual while you are on and when you come off the part of your brain that was stimulating your sexual tendencies becomes numb.
Also they said it does raise your estrogen and prolactin by a massive amount. Even if you do low test/high tren or the opposite it doesn't matter, the tren will trump it.
Well they have it completely wrong and the proof is in posts 1 2 and 3. The only valid argument is that it can raise prolactin indirectly by leaving excess testosterone to do its thing, but that is only valid in the context of a multi-compound cycle. Like a multi-car pile up.
What tren trumps is the speed of activation of the androgen receptor. when there are no androgen receptors to bind to, the compounds that lost the race (test for example) are redundant and end up being aromatised or excreted or metabolised/reduced in other ways.
Even if tren activated the estrogen receptor (which test can do in a very very small/neglible way), it is in no way shape or form converted to estrogen which would be essential to raise prolactin. It is only the excess test or high aromatising compounds that can do this.
Damn right. This is absolutely the case for a suppressed pituitary gland. you can see on my bloods that mine is now heavily shut down across the board. Duration is what causes it. PCT is what recovers it. The issue with tren is that it barely metabolises, just 1 step, and then hangs around quite some time. There is no way that this doesnt impact suppression... it has to.
Despite that though the real issue is that almost nobody knows how to do a PCT properly. start too early, mix SERMS and gonadatropins, overdose on SERMS and cause LH surge, never measure the different phases, never proving results before starting next phase, ending too early etc. etc.
Beyond that we are talking about pathological issues.
My next post is going to be PCT, comparing imperfect PCT results to well planned/ measured PCT.
Damn. That’s pretty damn interesting for sure
I dont know, I can’t help myself, I love tren so much and I think tren loves me too
ones I ran it at 1300mg/w, I don’t really recommend it to anyone
This is because you ARE tren!!!
The trenfella!