Forum: 19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 1: The controversy ~giardap, 2017

posted Fri, 07/21/2017 - 15:10

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+ 14 19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 1: The controversy

I've been collecting information for a long time to try to address the 19-nor/Prolacatin issue and now more recently having evolved my 'it starts and ends with estrogen' mindset into 'test is the mother of all evils' (at least on 19-nor's and beyond test only cycles). I am doing a little research at the moment to fuel an experiment (there is an element of risk with it, and low pay!) I am planning to do myself and will be creating a group for it. 2 other members expressed an interest in it, so if anybody else is, you can let me know and I can add to the group when created.

To give an idea of what is fueling this and where general opinion is, this is where I am at to date, based on info gathered, mostly forums/blogs etc. to cover general opinions. This isn't really research but a blurb on trends and discussion/arguments that make these topics interesting and polarising and fuels the need for such an experiment.

What is the story to date?
Well we all know the benefits of testosterone and that we always recommend test as a first cycle (1), then as a "base for all future cycles" (2). On-cycle advice: AI, HCG, Prolactin + ancillary support for organs/health/bp etc. (3)(4)(5)(6)(7). We also know a good amount about how and why AAS users leverage 19-nor's: Deca/Tren are very common compounds used in intermediate to advanced cycles. 19-nor's are often associated with great increases in strength increases, libido increases, LBM increases via improvements in protein synthesis, improved nitrogen retention, improved nutrient partitioning and increased IGF1 production (12)(13).

But there are risks: Test, Tren and Deca all have mild to severe side effects including but not limited to aromatisation/estrogen increases, prolactin increases, gyno of various types, prostate issues and cancer problems (prost etc.), water retention, CV issues (neg effect on BP/lipids/RBC) (8)(9)(10)(11). 19-nor's are also commonly associated with increases in progestorone (to predominantly female levels of the hormone and above) issues leading to prostate problems, water retention (moon face), conversion to estrogen (13) as well as high blood pressure, increased RBC, anxiety & "roid rage" (14). Very importantly, it is commonly held that 19-nor's induce an extremely strong suppression of natural testosterone production, making it "very important you supplement with some form of exogenous testosterone" (14).

So, what is the problem?
19-nor's are considered extremely suppressive of natural test, so; "stacking Deca Durabolin with testosterone is essential if for no other reason than combating natural testosterone suppression" (15). Some believe 19-nors can convert to estrogen, causing a need for an extra medication in the form of aromatase inhibitors. Others say tren cannot convert to estrogen, whereas some others say it converts at a lower rate than testosterone (16) with some contrarians advocating extremely high 19-nor only cycles (35). Shutdown/Estrogen/Water Retention bad mmmmkay?

One thing is for certain, almost all forum reports show a need for AI support with Deca cycles due to water retention/estro issues etc. see via many, many posts: "I hate test and deca water retention" - "My take on the Deca vs Eq debate" - "AI is required for this cycle" - "Ai either arimidex @ .25mg eod if nipples get sore .5mg eod if still sore .5mg ED or you can go with Aromasin @ 12.5mg eod if nipples get sore go to 12.5mg ED. Make sure you have caber on hand or letro" (17). Almost all forum cycle discussion say there is a need for testosterone as a base (2). It is a widely held belief that 19 nors can increase prolactin production. Due to 19nors being progestins which are related to progesterone which it is believed can influence prolactin levels (18). Forum blood reports that show high prolactin on 19-nor cycles can show signs of ED or lactation (9)(10)(11)(19), all of which I have personally experienced on both tren and deca cycles many years back now. That said, there are conflicting discussion on reports suggesting that clinical evidence shows progesterone doesn’t cause a raise in prolactin and therefore progestins such as 19-nors should also not product an increase in PRL (20). Another certainty is that testosterone converts to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme, disrupting the test to estro ratio leading to sides such as an increase in estrogen (8)(11)(21)(11). We also know, very importantly; that estrogen can lead to an increase in prolactin/regulates prolactin up or downwards and that estro is important for healthy libido and muscle growth (22)(23)(24).

So, what is true, what is accurate? Is this conflicting information, or do we need to trust in the more commonly held belief system that says, always run test, 19nor's cause deca dick and increase prolactin, always have caber on hand, always use an ai, 19-nor suppression is SEVERE, never run a 19-nor only cycle, never run 2 19-nors due to amplified shutdown you little old limp-noodle-dick you!

I question this mentality and belief system. I believe in minimum effective dose, research/data driven decisions including subjective experiences - especially when backed up by bloods etc, but I also have my own personal experiences that make me want to question the status quo. These include a background in 19-nor use and abuse, test use and abuse, over-reliance on ai's caber hcg etc. I have achieved a measure of gyno/increased PRL, water retention and the usual fat gains some complain of as well as severe shut down (close to a year) and the usual anxiety/rage with the likes of tren. Only in more recent years, when I started to question why I was failing so badly, did I experiment with high/low doses of test with 19-nor's. Anecdotally and subjectively I experienced less sides on high test/very low tren, as well as very low test / moderate/high tren/deca. more sides with high moderate combos and high high combos. I also learned to control estrogen and as a result have never had any PRL issues since leaving me to put caber back on the top shelf of the secret cabinet. The very low test cycles lead me to believe that test and it's conversaion to estro and its ability to increase PRL are a bigger issue than Deca or Tren's aromatase interactions (24). I also believe having not since experienced PRL issues, that 19-nor's are not (statistically) significant contributors to prolactin problems (but would love to investigate if this is true or if the body does something weird we haven't put our finger on yet [no homo] ). Working backwards, I also suspect that testosterone is the mother of all evils when combined with 19-nor's and question whether it is needed beyond test-only cycles at all. I also am a believer that we need to experience a compound on it's own to truly understand its effects in the body (although I acknowledge some meds/compounds interact).
All of this leads me to the following questions:

The big question(s) / research problem(s)
1. Do 19-nor's cause an increase in prolactin in vivo?
2. Are 19-nors more suppressive than testosterone?
3. Does testosterone cause increases in prolactin?
4. Is testosterone essential for a 19-nor cycle?

I will look into the following:
1. How does testosterone/estrogen/prolactin/aromatase work?
2. How do relevant receptors work?
3. Where can I find relevant clinical studies/research/data? (Most likely to focus on 1 19-nor, initial research on this question will help decide which)
4. What does research show to date?
5. What do clinical treatments show?
6. What do contrarians say to date?
7. What do (supposed/acknowledged) thought leaders say to date?

Based initially on the above research, but then on the answers to the questions/topics listed immediately above, I am going to devise an experiment based on 1 compound. My current idea based on the initial research is that I should test a 19-nor only cycle that goes beyond time to steady-state with a view to measuring it's effect on prolactin to answer the prolactin questions and on endogenous test, estro, and sides to try to understand if test is indeed the mother of all evils, rather than 19-nor's per sé or at least to give new ammo to 2 highly polarising topics. Solo 19-nor cycles are not a new idea in men or women, nor is abuse levelled at those who wonder about it (27)(28)(29)(30)(31)(32)(33)(34)(35) with many, if not most, advocating test as the primary and perhaps only hormone for solo runs (38). We know deca converts to estro somewhat, that tren does not or at least not to the extent that deca does, but still estro is needed for libido and muscle growth (24), so Deca MIGHT be the best option, or it MIGHT make the estrogen problem worse. Research needed!
I understand the risks, but feel very strongly that there is a bigger picture we are missing

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Your Comment

taeian
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07/10/2020 - 17:34

Lmao good job at literally stealing everything I've posted basically and posting as your own. You didn't do any research. You've just copied my post from the research I did. Good job. But thats why you also couldn't explain half the stuff indepth.

~~Anon~~
taeian
07/12/2020 - 10:52

Are you talking about reference number 36 listed at the bottom with the name "taeian" in the URL?
If so, then you have been given credit, and giving you credit is not plagiarism.
You're ongoing unsubstantiated accusations of plagiarism is why I just -1'd your comment.

giardap
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Shred777
07/14/2020 - 10:07

Cheers Shred.

He cant post a side by side, because his post, that he is talking about, was created more than 1 year after mine.
Check his deca only post on his website, check the dates, then check mine. Pretty clear.

I think I included 3 links where I read a number of things he had been discussing. I was laughed at, at the time for including him, but I stand beside it. I also, in the comments, include a later link to the enhanced athlete deca only trial which referenced him..
Check his GH15 posts, nothing like this (research oriented), that I know of. Nothing like this on facebook, that I know of.

Oh and I also reference lots of other people who used Deca solo, long before he looked at it! Go figure.

Couple of key differences between him and me:
1) He advocates deca only - I don't, because estrogen runs out, per my first (failed) test
2) He says deca actively lowers prolactin. - I don't, although there might be a pathway by which it is possible, but nothing to do with studies he cites.
3) He says deca can completely replace test in terms of the functions test completes - I don't
4) He abstract surfs to try prove points
5) My interest in prolactin came from a debate here on eroids about it causing or not, ED. I posted another forum prior to this on it, you can see it in my posts.

A couple of things he needs to think about:
1) Deca only is not his idea
2) 19nor versus prolactin debate is not his debate/idea
3) Academic research is not his to own
4) Abstract surfing is lazy beyond belief and often leads to uninformed arguments with logical fallacy
5) Being referenced/credited, even if you are not correct in things you say, is not plagiarism

A thought on plagiarism: It can be either text or ideas. Taken and presented as your own. Simple definition.
That hasn't happened. If I was a dick I would try to argue the reverse being the case based on his .com post. But that isn't the case either.

1.8k

Greg
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taeian
07/11/2020 - 15:40

post a side by side comparison of your original text and I'll make sure any plagiarized content is removed from eroids.

giardap
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taeian
07/10/2020 - 18:41

Fella, same again, every time you post a lie about me I will neg it.
Sort yourself out and you can have your karma back.

GizmoDuck
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02/10/2019 - 13:03

Damn. Nice. Onto part 2 now

Irishbomber86
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12/16/2017 - 04:42

Call me stupid but, why does everyone say to use double the test as the deca? I get that the 19 nor shuts you down..it's scientifically proven over and over but why double it? If 250mgs a week turns it back on why is more needed?

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/17/2017 - 12:11

I should also say...just to be very clear about shutdown... if you check how the negative feedback loop works with test derived androgens, and then check how esters work you can see clear as crystal how its esters that keep people shut down not some magical property of 1 test derivative over another.

Nandrolone doesnt do anything in terms of shutdown that test doesnt do. However decanoate ester will keep someone suppressed longer than a prop ester (ester half lives etc.). This is the very principle behind new improved (so they say) injectable TRT products.

All of this stuff has been shown and proven extensively... since test was first synthesised many moons ago.... people just need to cast the internet bro-nonsense into the bin.

TheFlash85
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Irishbomber86
12/17/2017 - 10:51

Because deca completely shuts you down you need more test to compensate to function properly as a man.
I'm still old school and recommend doubling test to DECA.

Achak
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TheFlash85
07/16/2020 - 16:10

Deca only cycles have become more popular. One just needs to take estrodial cream with it. This provides neuroprotection benefits. Testosterone increases neurotoxicity at supraphysiological dosages when taken with Deca. I used to share your belief but the research I have read recently overrides all my original thinking.

giardap
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TheFlash85
12/17/2017 - 12:04

Thats a tinchy tiny part of the picture of what it takes to finction as a man and increasing test makes the body react in female ways which requires more meds to counteract estro and then prl. You know all that.

Old school ways are absolutely not to run high test... thats post mid 90s ways... new school.

Irishbomber86
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Irishbomber86
12/16/2017 - 11:27

Or half the deca compared to test

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/17/2017 - 12:03

Do not do this ... for your future breasts sake!

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/16/2017 - 10:11

Its in the research pal. Honestly, it would be better to read it if you can stomach it and part two, too. I know its long but you could probably skip to the dosage doscussion and get enough. Do a 'ctrl + f' search or edit find or whatever.... search for dose and go though it to find the relevant section.

If you do that, dont think in terms of doubling doses or even in terms of grams. Just look at it this way: These fellas did experiments (different places pwople times etc)... this is what happenes to lbm, muscle, fat etc.
Look at the results doae to response and see what the body (consistently does). Then you can have a real conclusion about it... at least up to the maximum dose on the human trials.

Dont think double... or grams... or else we end up like enhanced fathlete/boston clown.

Irishbomber86
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giardap
12/22/2017 - 08:15

Ever look into the research of the side effects of high deca? You mentioned running upwards of 2g...of a guy your size that's more than 10 mg per kg...some research I stumbled across at the hospital I'm at discussed dosages of 10mg per kg and found it causes over expression of nephrin and podacin gene expression leading to kidney fibrosis and kidney failure.

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/23/2017 - 01:13

I did read a little on fibrosis, cannot quite remember offhand how detailed it got (which means not a lot)
Could you share? That's really interesting and as a health implication needs looking into.

Not a chance do people randomly get an ultrasound done, myself included, so this could potentially be an important one....

Irishbomber86
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Irishbomber86
12/22/2017 - 08:17

I know most people will say no worries I get my blood work done... problem is this only shows up on a very very specific blood test or on a renal ultrasound.. highly doubtful that people get yearly ultrasounds done on all their organs.

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/23/2017 - 01:15

Yeah look, bloods tell one tale.... whats in the bloods at a given time.
The whole left ventricle issue is another biggy that should be worrying us all, Deca and other compounds.

Organs arent that easy to replace

Irishbomber86
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giardap
12/16/2017 - 11:26

That's s almost like saying 600mg of deca shuts ya test down twice as hard as 300mg would..if that was the case it'd be similar to saying 600mg would give you twice to good as 300...

Irishbomber86
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giardap
12/16/2017 - 11:24

I was referring to dose needed to keep test functional. Not for purposes of gains... strength etc.

giardap
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Irishbomber86
12/17/2017 - 11:02

Oh sorry mate i misunderstood you.

Oh right... well yeah again read the lit test should never be doubled... never. People do it because they dont understamd it, did it myeelf for years.

Part 3, the experiment... im in middle of this. It has confirmed that test does not need to be run at anything above a trt dose and in realoty should not be.

I will have bloods soon, but 2g of deca to 150mg test pw test is where the best results on the experiment came from. So work that ratio out if you like!

Anyone who say test should be run higher doesnt get how the AR and binding affinities work and what it does to/in the body etc. Its a more complicated and advanced thing than the usual internet bullshido of 2:1 19 nor. All broscience (i hate that term but it is true).

Draconiaous
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10/24/2017 - 22:13

Have there been any updates on this? Hell of a subject, definitely lots to learn here

giardap
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Draconiaous
10/25/2017 - 08:44

Hey D
Yeah actually, i will write a small update today
Got delayed a little as had to get my lipids righ after my last long run. In the end I decided against a group experiment but i will explain why when i get a minute to type something up.
Experiment is underway now and with one really interesting result. Will post update asap

giardap
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07/24/2017 - 20:22

Mini update for anyone interested. Nandrolone is by far the most extensively 19-nor studied. I had a bit of a mini-revelation tonight and had to share. In a comparison I did of 3 different studies in AIDS/HIV patients with muscle loss, nandrolone decanoate was a therapy. There is a very clear theme with the doses they played with and both LBM and bodyweight increases as a result...
Study 1. 100mg bumped bodyweight up 1.8kg 12 weeks
Study 2. 150mg bumped bodyweight up by 2kg 12 weeks
Study 3. 600mg bumped bodyweight up by 6kg 12 weeks

As you increase the dose of Nandrolone treatment, there is a correspondingly greater increase in LBM.
Bostin Roid was right. Damn, I hate that prick.

Carlos Danger
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giardap
07/24/2017 - 21:28

Oh yeah this makes sense. Bigger dose equals more nitrogen retention. I'd also wonder if collegen synthesis increases as such as well. I would wager at a certain point the return of investment on the larger doses diminishes as well. At least for me personally it diminished. I'm sure like everything tho that breaking point of where appropriate results and diminished results split is different for everyone depending on current physical state along with history of usage and especially with genetics. Where my split is would be different than your and so on.

giardap
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Carlos Danger
07/24/2017 - 22:06

Yep, one of the studies I read today showed that there was a difference between the increase in LBM and muscle leaving the researchers in question to speculate that it was connective tissues which of course includes collagen - again another plus for the AAS users
I think you are 100% correct on the law of diminishing returns. One of the things I have been mulling after these revelations is whether there is a balance with estrogen, in the sense that you could perhaps increase the 19-nor dose to the point where an elevation of estro is achieved to normal levels, for normal sexual function etc This would differ in us all, meaning no 1 dose would be positioned to be a cookie cutter recommendation, but anything beyond the right lkevel for a given individual would result in estro sides... just a thought though, bloods would be the dictator there, for us all
Edit: Perhaps HCG could factor too as something to bump estro if needed

vhman
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giardap
07/24/2017 - 21:11

Bostin Roid was right.

I just disregarded your entire post because of this! ;-)

I've seen similar studies in the past. Interesting stuff.

giardap
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vhman
07/24/2017 - 21:19

LOL, Yup Im now walking away from it all too!!

Yeah it's crazy. we shall see what happens

~~Rustyhooker~~
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giardap
07/24/2017 - 21:24

If you're going to go research crazy, then look first into its origional medical uses like sickle cell. You might be amazed.

giardap
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Rustyhooker
07/24/2017 - 22:02

woah
that goes back to the 60's?!?!?! (just had a quick google)

~~Rustyhooker~~
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giardap
07/24/2017 - 22:10

Yessir. And it was going thru the steps of becoming a legal male contraceptive. Shuts the nads off.

giardap
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Rustyhooker
07/24/2017 - 22:39

It's like you say Rusty, not very much has changed really, has it?!

~~Rustyhooker~~
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giardap
07/24/2017 - 23:36

Just gotta find which one fits our body with the least sides and safest gains. That dna testing sounds fun for this. Help eliminate some guesswork.

Kinda like the folks that have really bad estro problems, switch to compounds like primo, var, etc. Then theres the lucky folks with hardly any conversion. Or the superior genetics folks that grow easily. There's a lot of good info out there. It sucks for us because many cant legally be tested on humans in the way we'd like to see. Plenty of tests on medical uses but just not for heavier doses. Like both y'all mentioned how hormones work great up to point of more sides or less returns. Those tests would be amazing to see in clinical settings

Jameshobbis
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07/22/2017 - 14:21

Another great post brother giardap! It amazes me how your always looking to expand you knowledge for the better! This will be very interesting to see the results and how they conflict against most of the information put out there that you read daily! I hope you get the results your looking for with this experiment

giardap
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Jameshobbis
07/22/2017 - 18:52

Cheers J
Now it'd be nice if we got something new(ish) but I am absolutely ready to eat a massive postworkout portion of humble pie if any of this goes not according to plan!

Carlos Danger
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07/22/2017 - 02:49

I keep trying to grasp what exactly you're looking to gain out of this so called "experiment". I think the term experiment is being used here in place of calling it possibly a bad idea. Seriously bro what is the end game? What is the return of investment? A better way to run 19 nors? Enlightenment?

Though I would totally agree that both outcomes are entirely possible here, I just should say that a lot of us have already been down this road and at least me personally can attest that my own research was inconclusive and my personal usage and variation of usage led me back to square one. Do what works and what is simple in correlation to my body.

I've searched over the years for articles and papers written on the relationships between progesterone and prolactin and estrogen and testosterone. You really won't find too many articles speaking to those hormones in terms of AAS use in particular hardcore(Tren) AAS use. There just isn't enough material to base anything conclusive off of that material alone. So I do support tangible research such as running compounds differently with varying stacks and dosages to combine with your reading.

Back to my original point tho bro, what is exactly the return of investment? My thought is the answers you're looking for will be so watered down and as I found to be more conjecture than fact. I mean you'll be able to tie some things together and make educated guesses like I did in the past. But it was never enough to base my rep on it. It all comes back to the classic saying that "what works for me might not work for you". I don't think there is ever anything worth cheering about recommending cookie cutter type stacks regardless of dosages. Blanket statements always end up being wrong advice sooner or later. It comes back to why this sport is an individual one. In the end we must do it alone.
Some folks think it's a cool idea for a group experiment and to a certain degree I fully support exploring your journey with AAS as long as it's done with a focus on safety but most of all self persaverance. But honestly most of those folks who want to join you on your adventure will always march when the bugle blasts reveille.

I'm all for supporting each other here but expirements in a group fashion aren't my cup of tea. I would challenge them all to each take on different aspects of this idea rather than all of you do the same thing. hopefully you can cover more of your hypothesis that way rather than all of you make the same mistakes.
I won't advise you to not move forward with what you're planning because honestly I don't know you enough to care but in the spirit of brotherhood I gotta say I don't see an adequate return of investment to cheer you on. I will however wish best of luck to you Sir.

Respect

TheFlash85
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Carlos Danger
07/23/2017 - 10:22

G knows my opinion on the matter we met on here from me flaming him and abusing over the topic. Im a firm believer in using caber etc running my test 2-1 over deca etc etc same as the way you and rusty do things.

But i am all for new experiments and will be watching.

giardap
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Carlos Danger
07/22/2017 - 05:38

Thanks for your thoughts Carlos. I appreciate threm and absolutely do take what you say on board. + from me.

The end game is 1. To end the 19-nor prl debate (or get as close to that as possible) and 2. to identify if there is a better way to run 19-nor without sides such as gyno. 3. To get rid of some of the related cookie cutter cycles such as test bases, ai's, caber etc. (Min effective dose or zero or MED when neceasary).

If what I believe is correct, people may have an option/protocol that leads them down a path where they no longer have to manage multiple hormones (how many xrashed estro/high estro and crashed prl/high prl threads are there?) so much..... that would be an impressive ROI.

WRT the experiment, there will be inclusion/exclusion criteria and other controls in place. People are welcome to participate in research only too rather than the trial itself but only the next bout of research will dictate whether I go ahead, however from what I've been reading from studies with HIV/ AIDS sufferers this may be an easier road than any of us could suspect to date. Time and research will tell, but I admit to being surprised by what I've read so far.

Thanks again for the post. I am going to ask anyone interested in participating or following to read your thoughts. We need all perspectives, to be able to make informed decisions.

DfromPhilly
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Carlos Danger
07/22/2017 - 04:32

Incredibly well put, and my thoughts exactly.

Good luck to anyone getting involved and be careful. All of our "common knowledge" and "status quo's" have come from other people's past mistakes and experimenting/discoveries.

giardap
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DfromPhilly
07/22/2017 - 13:35

Valid points D. Valid points +

~~Rustyhooker~~
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DfromPhilly
07/22/2017 - 06:11

I'll sit sideline and watch as well. Some guys can run npp higher while the majority can not. Just as some guys have proven with 7 years of posted bloods that can run with no or very lil ai during even the highest test runs while others must run massive doses of ai on the most simple cycles.

It'll be interesting to watch as results are posted that cover whats been found thru personal research since steroid use started. It'll come down to the safety preached here for those 7 years....

1-ai on hand as/if needed
2- bloods will prove your personal direction
3- until you prove your body with bloods...deca is half to test.
4- low test on tren a until you know by blood proof how you react.
5-posted medical research is only a basis on posting your ideals. Nothing we do here is normal. Nothing here is by the book. Its only as good as research can provide in a perfect laboratory environment. Aka dr scally with his test to blood ratios.
6-if you're really serious then go for the dna testing. Be smart. Be prepared.

I personally have seen the smartest vets find out about prolactin and estro the hard way. Believing that estro controls all. Then after being bit, they even used a nor, they leaked from the nipples without caber.

1935 til current date.... be safe. I anxiously await the results. Drugs havent changed since the mid 70's. I've run many experimental cycles including the aro pct that i guinea pigged back in the day. Which assisted and led to med proofs posted in the blood group by imo, the wizard of bloods. I hope to see advancement in roid use .

giardap
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Rustyhooker
07/22/2017 - 13:35

I agree with you Rusty. +
I've found that there are real world supraphys uses of certain steroids that go beyond the petri dish. Not quite at our level but some of what I'm seeing is really interesting, regardless of this discussion.
Safety first, all the way.
What do you have in mind re: DNA testing? Have you a link I could take a look at, see if it's something I can do?

~~Rustyhooker~~
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giardap
07/22/2017 - 17:39

Pale did the dna test as did couple others. It was very interesting but better from his mouth. Sounded very worth while to all of us.

Good luck sir! Will be exciting

Gettingbig
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07/21/2017 - 19:07

So what I gather is your looking to find out if nor19 is ok to run without test in the cycle?

Or is it more of the question about progesterone converting to prolactin?

Im game to be part of this I've got plunty of npp and decca stocks.
I've also got the caber and aromasin if things go wrong.
I would like to be part of this group and im open to find out results

giardap
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Gettingbig
07/21/2017 - 22:25

Yes sir, both. In order of questions being formed...
Prolactin/19-nor controversy -> do 19-nors really cause prl increases or is it just estrogen?
Testosterone - is it in fact the cause of most sides -> who owns the receptors and what is actually happening with test and/or 19-nor when aromatase hits it?

Awesome fella, you are clearly a very brave man!! We will go over everything in the group. Am working away on research as we speak. Found some REALLY interesting stuff. Will share everything soon

Gettingbig
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giardap
07/22/2017 - 14:27

Im up for it
I understand the consequences of what can happen but im prepared with the right tools if things go wrong so just keep me updated when this gets started which road you would like me to walk and get facts on.

The reason that I would like to take part in this is i started a forum about triptorlin and multiple members ran research grade, peps ,and pharma grade trip with blood work to back up all the results. If you search Bigmurph you should be able to find it here.
I believe that it was one of the best forum posts. So this time around i would like to be one to step up and see what happens

giardap
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Gettingbig
07/22/2017 - 23:11

Spot on fella! Looking forward to it
I'm going to check that thread out, sounds really interesting

DfromPhilly
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giardap
07/22/2017 - 04:49

How will you know wether its estrogen or the 19nor causing prolactin increase? What is one group someone not going to use an AI and let their e2 shoot through the roof? I'm only confused about the constant and how this will be determined.

Oh, and thanks for the time you're putting in.

giardap
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DfromPhilly
07/22/2017 - 13:12

Well estro is a known regulator of prolactin. This we know. We will establish a baseline of test-estro-prl. If 19-nor directly raises prl we will see it on bloods. If aroma actions raises prl via estro we will see estro initially. Health first so we will use Ai if needed and that will prolong the 19-nor cycle. We don't need to prove estro raises prl just that 19-nor does or does not.

So initially the selected 19-nor is a constant as is duration. Dosage per ester will be another constant. Variables will be esters (across groups) and their dependent variables will be suppression, aromatisation, estrogen, prolactin, endogenous test, and so on. We will compare bloods to get the results. In an ideal world we would have 3 groups... long short and mixed esters... but again I want to stress that we aren't there yet because there is a lot more research to be done. BuT I'm getting through a lot so far this weekend (although it is rushed, I'm aiming to be as thorouGH as possible and already have a decent bit of work done from my look at prl and libido)

DfromPhilly
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giardap
07/22/2017 - 14:19

Totally agree that there's no dispute about estrogen being a regulator of PRL. I'm more wondering how you can determine whether it's the 19nor or estrogen causing the rise in PRL unless a part of the group dose tren only and the other half dose tren with An aromatising substance and allows their e2 to rise a little, or if a part of the group lets their e2 shoot up high while on a 19nor while the others keep it in range.

Just to be clear I'm not busting balls. I appreciate all the time you're putting in. While this experiment is ballsy, I'm all for learning and will be following along. I just feel like I'm clearly missing something and trying to figure out what that something is.

No big deal, though. I don't want to take you away from the work you're doing this weekend. I guess I'll figure it out while I follow.

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