Forum: 19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 1: The controversy ~giardap, 2017

posted Fri, 07/21/2017 - 06:10

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+ 14 19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 1: The controversy

I've been collecting information for a long time to try to address the 19-nor/Prolacatin issue and now more recently having evolved my 'it starts and ends with estrogen' mindset into 'test is the mother of all evils' (at least on 19-nor's and beyond test only cycles). I am doing a little research at the moment to fuel an experiment (there is an element of risk with it, and low pay!) I am planning to do myself and will be creating a group for it. 2 other members expressed an interest in it, so if anybody else is, you can let me know and I can add to the group when created.

To give an idea of what is fueling this and where general opinion is, this is where I am at to date, based on info gathered, mostly forums/blogs etc. to cover general opinions. This isn't really research but a blurb on trends and discussion/arguments that make these topics interesting and polarising and fuels the need for such an experiment.

What is the story to date?
Well we all know the benefits of testosterone and that we always recommend test as a first cycle (1), then as a "base for all future cycles" (2). On-cycle advice: AI, HCG, Prolactin + ancillary support for organs/health/bp etc. (3)(4)(5)(6)(7). We also know a good amount about how and why AAS users leverage 19-nor's: Deca/Tren are very common compounds used in intermediate to advanced cycles. 19-nor's are often associated with great increases in strength increases, libido increases, LBM increases via improvements in protein synthesis, improved nitrogen retention, improved nutrient partitioning and increased IGF1 production (12)(13).

But there are risks: Test, Tren and Deca all have mild to severe side effects including but not limited to aromatisation/estrogen increases, prolactin increases, gyno of various types, prostate issues and cancer problems (prost etc.), water retention, CV issues (neg effect on BP/lipids/RBC) (8)(9)(10)(11). 19-nor's are also commonly associated with increases in progestorone (to predominantly female levels of the hormone and above) issues leading to prostate problems, water retention (moon face), conversion to estrogen (13) as well as high blood pressure, increased RBC, anxiety & "roid rage" (14). Very importantly, it is commonly held that 19-nor's induce an extremely strong suppression of natural testosterone production, making it "very important you supplement with some form of exogenous testosterone" (14).

So, what is the problem?
19-nor's are considered extremely suppressive of natural test, so; "stacking Deca Durabolin with testosterone is essential if for no other reason than combating natural testosterone suppression" (15). Some believe 19-nors can convert to estrogen, causing a need for an extra medication in the form of aromatase inhibitors. Others say tren cannot convert to estrogen, whereas some others say it converts at a lower rate than testosterone (16) with some contrarians advocating extremely high 19-nor only cycles (35). Shutdown/Estrogen/Water Retention bad mmmmkay?

One thing is for certain, almost all forum reports show a need for AI support with Deca cycles due to water retention/estro issues etc. see via many, many posts: "I hate test and deca water retention" - "My take on the Deca vs Eq debate" - "AI is required for this cycle" - "Ai either arimidex @ .25mg eod if nipples get sore .5mg eod if still sore .5mg ED or you can go with Aromasin @ 12.5mg eod if nipples get sore go to 12.5mg ED. Make sure you have caber on hand or letro" (17). Almost all forum cycle discussion say there is a need for testosterone as a base (2). It is a widely held belief that 19 nors can increase prolactin production. Due to 19nors being progestins which are related to progesterone which it is believed can influence prolactin levels (18). Forum blood reports that show high prolactin on 19-nor cycles can show signs of ED or lactation (9)(10)(11)(19), all of which I have personally experienced on both tren and deca cycles many years back now. That said, there are conflicting discussion on reports suggesting that clinical evidence shows progesterone doesn’t cause a raise in prolactin and therefore progestins such as 19-nors should also not product an increase in PRL (20). Another certainty is that testosterone converts to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme, disrupting the test to estro ratio leading to sides such as an increase in estrogen (8)(11)(21)(11). We also know, very importantly; that estrogen can lead to an increase in prolactin/regulates prolactin up or downwards and that estro is important for healthy libido and muscle growth (22)(23)(24).

So, what is true, what is accurate? Is this conflicting information, or do we need to trust in the more commonly held belief system that says, always run test, 19nor's cause deca dick and increase prolactin, always have caber on hand, always use an ai, 19-nor suppression is SEVERE, never run a 19-nor only cycle, never run 2 19-nors due to amplified shutdown you little old limp-noodle-dick you!

I question this mentality and belief system. I believe in minimum effective dose, research/data driven decisions including subjective experiences - especially when backed up by bloods etc, but I also have my own personal experiences that make me want to question the status quo. These include a background in 19-nor use and abuse, test use and abuse, over-reliance on ai's caber hcg etc. I have achieved a measure of gyno/increased PRL, water retention and the usual fat gains some complain of as well as severe shut down (close to a year) and the usual anxiety/rage with the likes of tren. Only in more recent years, when I started to question why I was failing so badly, did I experiment with high/low doses of test with 19-nor's. Anecdotally and subjectively I experienced less sides on high test/very low tren, as well as very low test / moderate/high tren/deca. more sides with high moderate combos and high high combos. I also learned to control estrogen and as a result have never had any PRL issues since leaving me to put caber back on the top shelf of the secret cabinet. The very low test cycles lead me to believe that test and it's conversaion to estro and its ability to increase PRL are a bigger issue than Deca or Tren's aromatase interactions (24). I also believe having not since experienced PRL issues, that 19-nor's are not (statistically) significant contributors to prolactin problems (but would love to investigate if this is true or if the body does something weird we haven't put our finger on yet [no homo] ). Working backwards, I also suspect that testosterone is the mother of all evils when combined with 19-nor's and question whether it is needed beyond test-only cycles at all. I also am a believer that we need to experience a compound on it's own to truly understand its effects in the body (although I acknowledge some meds/compounds interact).
All of this leads me to the following questions:

The big question(s) / research problem(s)
1. Do 19-nor's cause an increase in prolactin in vivo?
2. Are 19-nors more suppressive than testosterone?
3. Does testosterone cause increases in prolactin?
4. Is testosterone essential for a 19-nor cycle?

I will look into the following:
1. How does testosterone/estrogen/prolactin/aromatase work?
2. How do relevant receptors work?
3. Where can I find relevant clinical studies/research/data? (Most likely to focus on 1 19-nor, initial research on this question will help decide which)
4. What does research show to date?
5. What do clinical treatments show?
6. What do contrarians say to date?
7. What do (supposed/acknowledged) thought leaders say to date?

Based initially on the above research, but then on the answers to the questions/topics listed immediately above, I am going to devise an experiment based on 1 compound. My current idea based on the initial research is that I should test a 19-nor only cycle that goes beyond time to steady-state with a view to measuring it's effect on prolactin to answer the prolactin questions and on endogenous test, estro, and sides to try to understand if test is indeed the mother of all evils, rather than 19-nor's per sé or at least to give new ammo to 2 highly polarising topics. Solo 19-nor cycles are not a new idea in men or women, nor is abuse levelled at those who wonder about it (27)(28)(29)(30)(31)(32)(33)(34)(35) with many, if not most, advocating test as the primary and perhaps only hormone for solo runs (38). We know deca converts to estro somewhat, that tren does not or at least not to the extent that deca does, but still estro is needed for libido and muscle growth (24), so Deca MIGHT be the best option, or it MIGHT make the estrogen problem worse. Research needed!
I understand the risks, but feel very strongly that there is a bigger picture we are missing

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giardap
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DfromPhilly
07/22/2017 - 09:40

Ah! I see what you mean.
Yes so this is what I am speculating about; in a nutshell i believe 19nor displaces exog test which converts then est inc prl, and believe 19nor itself doesnt directly cause per Inc.
if we are right about tren not aromatising at all then it won't raise estro so it cannot raise prl that way, leaving a direct effecT on prl (or some other indirect mechanism we don't understand yet). Now Deca does aromatise more than tren but the question is how much and is it enough to spark prl increases. This why I'm gathering as much info as possible on both the (on paper) pharmaco's and also the supraphys (in-human) effects of 19-nors. Plus understanding test/estro ratios.
What I see so far is this: 19-nor shuts off test fast. In the absence of test can 19-nor convert to estro enough to a. Maintain pos estro levels for muscle and growth +b. Can it go even higher to spark prl? (It won't be estro from natural test. If 19-nor doesn't aromatise but we see a prl inc. then we can be reasonably sure 19-nor caused it via some odd mechanism.

Does that make sense? We shouldn't need to actually enter super high estro state to know there is risk of prl raising from high estro but should see precursor activity to indicate raise of prl risk. We should shut test off fast enough to know it is not effecting. When stable we should then see new estro and/or prl trends or not. If not then 19-nor is not cause of direct or indirect prl issues (but this doesn't necessarily confirm there is no interaction with exog test).

DfromPhilly
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giardap
07/23/2017 - 01:30

Gotcha. I see what you're saying now. Yea if you get bloods often, in theory you should know pretty quickly with that approach.

woodsman
19
07/21/2017 - 09:52

Great writeup.
My personal experience is ED from deca and hypersexuality from tren.
Best run with low test.
I'm getting away from 19nors.Too much rage on tren,too much bloating on deca.NPP is super. Meanwhile dianabol/anavar/test combo.
Hair loss is the only downside.
My only gyno problem was on D-bols,deca, high test.
No more of that.

giardap
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woodsman
07/21/2017 - 11:32

On that last combo... what if it was all the yest that caused the Gyno? I believe that to be the case for me.
If my experiment showS, for arguments sake, zero aromatisation/estrogen gyno and zero increase in prolactin or prog related gyno.....

Would you reconsider the cycle without the high test, in the future?

woodsman
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giardap
07/21/2017 - 22:06

The classic deca D-bol cycle is not for me.
I would run NPP and masteron though.
That sounds pretty safe with low test,or medium test.

TheFlash85
546
07/21/2017 - 08:04

Damn g!

Still pumping it out!

Fucking awesome!

Make sure you get that group up and send me a request.

Hopefully it kicks off and we can get more people to run experiments on grey area topics and gather new information to the aas world.

There isnt a better place to do it because we are the number one site in the entire world .

Booom.

Another plus two from me for your hard work.

Keep it up mate!

giardap
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TheFlash85
07/21/2017 - 11:17

Jaysus fella, wouldn't that be something else. Eroids is such an amazing place. Imagine a load of people working together on different ideas.
Like you did on the Gyno protocol etc. Looking forward to it!

bigrick2017
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07/21/2017 - 07:44

Great topic it's going to be interested to see what everyone has to say about it

giardap
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bigrick2017
07/21/2017 - 07:58

Absolutely
Hopefully we all learn something new

waterhead235
80
07/21/2017 - 07:12

I've argued this topic many times on here only to get the typical "You have to do it this way and you are wrong". It's my belief that test is the culprit for a lot of the nasty sides associated with 19nor cycles. I ran one test/deca cycle at the "recommended 2 to 1 ratio and it was a mess. Since then I've run various combinations of 19nors with only 125mg/wk of test and side effects have been minimal to non existent. I'm glad you are starting this conversation and I hope it will open some peoples eyes.

DSTER
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waterhead235
07/22/2017 - 03:24

Same here, I only use about 150-200 test and I feel great every cycle. Nearly zero sides, It's crazy. I guess everyone is different but for me I'll never go past 200 ever again.

giardap
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DSTER
07/22/2017 - 14:15

And that seems to be less than some lads are being prescribed for TRT these days!!!!!
I reckon our bodies have x amount of receptors and we typically cram in y amount of test with nowhere to go other than sidesville
Madness

giardap
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waterhead235
07/21/2017 - 07:29

Just read your post from 2015, really interesting, very similar to my experiences leading up to where my mind is going now. Yeah the conversation will be interesting, no doubt. Hopefully we can sideline the abuse and look at both the info gathered and then an experiment - if it's an overshoot then it will be verrrrrry easy to spot.

waterhead235
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giardap
07/21/2017 - 07:40

Hopefully the conversation will remain civil and we can all learn something.

giardap
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waterhead235
07/21/2017 - 07:59

I doubt it will remain civil lol
;-P

GrowMore
994
07/21/2017 - 06:53

Loving your work. Great input on the forums and I'm excited to follow the progress. Count me in the group.

I know many lads who have run deca only cycles/blasts (not many tren only) and like everything in this game it's relevant from person to person what effect that had one them; from ED for 6 months to his best cycle to date and everything in between.

It's a funny old game and unfortunately most need to go steady and build up slowly to find what works for them.

helloBrooklyn
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GrowMore
07/21/2017 - 12:38

Deca only can work, especially if paired with an oral that aromatizes. The reason why is that testosterone specifically is not necessarily needed to carry out bodily functions. Androgens are needed to carry out the functions of androgens; testosterone is merely an androgen, not the only one. Nandrolone is an androgen that gets the job done adequately, as is trenbolone.

So tren only is okay, too? Not so fast!

While the specific androgen testosterone is not necessary in the presence of abundant other androgens, estrogen absolutely, positively is needed to function. Where will the estrogen come from if there's no testosterone to aromatize? Trenbolone, as we all know, does not aromatize. That is the reason why deca only can work--since deca does aromatize--but trenbolone alone probably won't.

Broscientists who feel like shit on tren alone assume it's because of the lack of test. Nope. It's because of lack of estrogen. This is why if someone is adamant on not using test with tren, it should be paired with an aromatizable steroid such as dianabol.

Does it go against the grain? Absolutely. Real science often does.

giardap
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helloBrooklyn
07/22/2017 - 09:48

Boom. +
This is EXACTLY what I'm seeing on paper so far

giardap
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GrowMore
07/21/2017 - 06:57

You said it GM. There are without doubt so many individual factors that make things worse and/or not work. The guidelines and manuals rarely apply to everyone!

GrowMore
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giardap
07/21/2017 - 10:06

I'll wait to ask some more questions in the group/pm but will you be logging your diet/workout routine/weight/bf%?

Is this a recomp, bulk or cut?

Definitely looking forward to seeing your journey.

giardap
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GrowMore
07/21/2017 - 10:31

Spot on. Good q actually bulk or cut as tren is often considered a cutter whereas Deca is often considered a bulker only. I've always said tren is the best for bulking and we certainly know Deca is a beast but the question still stands in reverse; is Deca good for cutting (water retention etc)... So this could yield a 2nd experiment I guess.
I will be doing a bulker and leaning towards the type of things that have given me sides in the past (controversial) , such as mixed esters and/or eod pins etc. Depends on what i find on pharmacokinetics of tren/Deca. I sort of want to push myself a little to see what happens which may be silly so might need to reign that back a little... research will dictate.
I'll log full workout routine and diet. Will follow Ben Pakulski's Mi40x and incredible bulk programs (will post details)
Will log body fat too as well as weight weekly and bloods (before during after) and commentary.
That is, as long as it doesn't go pear shaped!!

Jayzgainz
209
07/21/2017 - 06:41

Im glad the world has people like you Gia who question the status quo and arent afraid to try new things for the benefit of everyone.
I'm too new to the world of AAS to be using a 19nor at this time, maybe someday but, I will be following your group if I can to watch your progress and your research methods.

Owes a Review × 1

giardap
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Jayzgainz
07/21/2017 - 06:48

Well, we will see if I shut myself down for a year again lol Although I wager it will not happen.
+ for knowing when NOT to do 19-nor's, respect Jay.

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+ 14 19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 1: The controversy

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