HailRazor's picture
HailRazor
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TENDON ISSUES

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Recent Rotator Cuff Issue(s):

MRI Shows: (is there a Doctor in the house)

Supraspinatus tendinopathy

Intrasubstance partial tear (50% tendon thickness) at distal insertion
Subacromial bursal inflammation
Subscapularis tendinopathy, possible thin intratendon delamination

Glenohumeral articulation/ Acromioclavicular structures:
Mild spurring and edema

Received a corticosteroid injection (not by choice). My understanding is that this isn't the most effective treatment long term. Only short term pain relief.

Wondering if anyone has any first-hand experience with:

Growth Factors or Stem Cell treatment: (Regenerative Medicine)

http://ismspringfield.com/techniques.html

https://appliedbiologics.com/product-showcase/flograft/

Active Release Techniques® (ART):

http://www.activerelease.com/what_patients.asp

http://youtu.be/qvSHViT937A
(Jay Cutler - ART)

Graston Technique®

http://www.grastontechnique.com/about

http://youtu.be/aRM3-9sja-g

Any information from anyone who has had tendon issues would be appreciated

Thanks
HR

Stem Cell Treatment (Dave Palumbo)

http://youtu.be/grlePx07IFU

Platelet-rich plasma (PRP) Treatment (Dave Palumbo)

http://youtu.be/eK_wW2ED7ko

7gothic's picture

One of the reasons I stay away from heavy weight is tendon issues. Everybody is different, but I have always worked for the pump and lighter weights have done it for me tremendously.

fetus's picture

Good luck brother. I have torn labrums in both shoulders many times, and have had 4(largely unsuccessful) surgeries. There is a lot going on in the shoulder joint, and it can really affect your lifestyle.
I have managed to make good progress with my own issues after years of floundering with surgeries and "PT", but my problems have somehow never been rotator cuff tears, so I am hesitant to comment too much in that regard.
I can say that once you get to the point that you can safely hit the weights, making your shoulders and stabilizer muscles a priority is probably the way to go. I wish I had done this myself years ago instead of avoiding going hard out of fear. But obviously exercise caution and good judgment. My experience is my own.
I hope you get back to 100%!

ALS8's picture

I think Stem cell is a great treatment, but have heard it is quite expensive. Is it? The treatment i recommend for every singe ailment is the BFST. I've used it and talk to many people who it helps. It's treatment you can do at home and I honestly think you'd get the same results. http://kingbrand.com/Rotator_Cuff_Treatment.php?REF=46PV5.211 - I'd love to know if anyone else has used these

ALS8's picture

I'm sorry to hear about your shoulder. The shoulder joint has the greatest range of motion out of all other joints in our body, which is why it is the joint most prone to injury. When lifting or doing any activity that heavily involves the use of your arms and shoulders, it puts a lot of strain on the shallow joint. Try to immobilize it as much as possible. Because of the range of motion of the shoulder, it is very easy to re-injure it and make it worse. To help heal it without surgery, focus on things that increase the blood flow (but with minimal strain). I recommend treatments that don't require a lot of exertion in being able to do so. Things such as massage therapy, ultrasound, BFST, acupuncture, etc. These types of treatment give you the nutrients and oxygen you need to heal but reduce the risk factors involved with a lot of physical activity. It's also very important to follow anything physical with a cold compress. If the area is inflamed it hinders the blood flow even more than it would typically. Get the inflammation down, then increase the circulation.

HailRazor's picture

Thanks for the info ......I decided on Stem Cell Therapy (injecting IV and directly into the damaged tendon) along with some PT (ART)

dbombs's picture

I'm curious if you had your stem cell therapy yet... I've got elbow tendon issues my ortho recommended prp but another dr is suggesting prp with stem cells. I plan to make a decision in the next few weeks and would love to hear how you're doing if you had the treatment. Thanks!

Dacky's picture

I have almost the exact same issues with my shoulder. First started 5 years ago with a disclocation playing softball (don't tell anyone lol). That resulted in a labral tear repair and subacromial decompression being needed. The surgery went well and with some rehab I was better than before. Fast forward to 9 months ago trying to complete a PB bench press and same shoulder feel something go at the top of the movement and then pain ever since. No labral test but all sorts of tendonopathy in the shoulder. A kenalog injection did the trick and I was pain free for 3 months and then overnight it came back. I've done 4 months of physio (while still lifting normally) and it's much better but I still get pain. IGF-1 LR3 did nothing for it. I'm staring 6 months of HGH shortly and may add TB500. If all else fails I'm going to get it injected again and do that up to three times a year as I don't want to do another surgery. Especially as theyre taking about removing part of my shoulder to achieve permanent pain relief. I got up and walked out of the surgeon's office at that point. Good luck fella

HailRazor's picture

It looks like they want to "shave" the spur(s) and debride (shave) the frayed tendon. Im going to start some PT soon and look into other "healing" options for the tendon

Thanks D

Dacky's picture

That's exactly what they did in my surgery and it kept me pain free with full range of motion (post rehab) for 6 years until I messed it up again going too heavy for a 1RM on bench. For me it was worth it but I'm not letting them take out part of my shoulder joint now. I'll live with a bit of discomfort and have injections three times per year for now. Good luck bro!

fetus's picture

I'm right there with you bro. 4 surgeries for labral tears, and I can't consider any of them complete successes. At 37 years old, it would take a serious, life-altering situation for me to go under the knife again.

humpnpump's picture

I've endured shoulder pain due to over compensation of my torn pec. Best way that I can tell you HR is HGH, IGF, TB 500 and foam rolling your back and upper back and the very tense areas use a tennis ball, lay on it. For the shoulder face a rough surface wall and place the tennis ball between your shoulder and the wall. This will relax the muscles and take the tension off of the tendons and joints, this along with TB 500 which also relaxes your muscles and helps them un-knot so to speak and flexible, this is why TB 500 work for some joint pains, not that it heals the joint but that it relaxes the muscles, which makes it more flexible smoother and longer and takes the tension away allowing the inflammation to subside and then you will get some ROM again. I've not gotten an MRI done but I imagen my shoulder is in pretty bad shape and mentioned above has allieviated the pain to almost null.

HailRazor's picture

Thanks Bro

I've endured shoulder pain due to over compensation of my torn pec.

See, this makes sense to me....I've suffered with shoulder issues for years.

I think it originates from the Pec and Lateral Scapula area:
-Micro-trauma (micro tears and hypoxia) from overuse

I don't have an "Ivy League" degree.....but I think that the "knots" and shortening of the muscles in these areas caused my shoulder to be "outta whack"

I think this caused the Spur(s) to damage the tendons....it's never been a rotator cuff issue until recently.

Appreciate the advice

humpnpump's picture

Yeah it's all intertwined. My torn pec makes my supra scapula and spinal erectors all knotted up, when it gets bad I roll the muscles out, usually with a tennis ball for several minutes a day for 3 to 4 days and I'll feel like a million bucks again. The source of the tension that radiates to the supra scapula and spinal erector is wear my pec tore it gets so knotted up and sore. I can't usually feel it it's odd, but I can put my thumb underneath my armpit and bare upwards toward my shoulder and man is it sore. Point is the pain or ache you feel isn't always the source of the pain it could be in another location.

HailRazor's picture

Yes! The "new pain" radiates into my neck and my armpit. It's like a stabbing/piercing pain. In the shoulder it's a burning pain. I'm all fudged up at the moment. Everything you're saying makes sense.

guitarplayer1's picture

At the very least load up on Glucosamine and MSM 6000mg each daily. ART would be my first option.

At least you got a detailed diagnosis and can work from there. What did this? A single exercise, or over time?

Owes a Review × 1
HailRazor's picture

I think a combo of ART and Graston (looks painful)

It been an ongoing issue....but... I think I tore up my own shoulder trying to "stretch out" the discomfort I've been having....I went from 100lbs Dumbbells Incline Chest, 10 Reps no Spot.....to can barely work chest now.

BigWA67's picture

What about prp platelet rich plasma therapy http://www.orthonc.com/news-updates/news-archives/what-prp-therapy

HailRazor's picture

That would be Regenerative Medicine. It's an option ($$)

Growth Factor (supplementation injections) using ultrasound (directly into injured area) is another:

"Numerous Growth Factors are involved in tendon repair (BMPs, EGF, EGF2, IGF-1, IGF-II, etc).....Exogenous supplementation of these factors may lead to definitive healing response"

I'm guessing this is all too new to get any feedback

Dickkhead's picture

Pharm grade HGH seemed to enable my torn distal biceps tendon to scar over. I was scheduled for surgery and I told the doc I had access to it and he said go ahead. I think I used 8 IU day for 2 months. Doc was impressed with the result but had seen it before. No surgery.

HailRazor's picture

scar over

I've seen your post on this before. I'm probably over-reading / over analyzing....but:

The commonest form of tendon healing is by scarring, which is inferior to healing by regeneration

Does HGH/IGF1LR3 SubQ or IM help in regeneration.....or does it (or other peptide supplementation) have to be directly injected to the effected area?

I'm like you.....no surgery as an option

Dickkhead's picture

The commonest form of tendon healing is by scarring, which is inferior to healing by regeneration

Bro, sometimes I like just being a dumb jock. I don't know what is meant by "inferior" nor do I care. All I know is that the scarred over arm is just as strong as the uninjured arm and that's all I care about. And, further, what I do know is that it would not have "scarred over" without HGH.

I also hold 4 Ivy League degrees. I know this is the Internet, but who would make that up? Nobody. The result of all that dang education is that I DETEST highbrow scientific discussions. I cringe at the thought of having to read through some dang academic study. I certainly don't have a grasp of what healing by regeneration is and what makes it great and why I should be worried about my scar tissue. To tell me that what I ended up with is inferior to something else is to suggest there is a cause for concern that has so far eluded me. What pray tell is it?

HailRazor's picture

Huh? Jigga Whaaa?

The highlighted "quote" I posted is from:

Rotator Cuff Disorders:
Basic Science & Clinical Medicine
JP Medical Series

Tendons heal by going through inflammatory (controlling inflammation with corticosteroid injections and anti inflammatory meds (NSAIDS) may not be the most effective option)

Biological Therapy (Growth Factors/ Regeneration) is the "new thang"

Stem Cell Treatment

Increasing the pool of tendon stem may stimulate increased tendon healing with tendon regeneration rather than reactive scar formation

Healing occurred through fibrocartilagenous tissue that resembled the native tendon-to-bone insertion site rather than the scar tissue typically seen following injury

Ole Rich Piana discusses his recent Stem Cell Treatment on his knee

I'm trying to educate myself on options other than surgery especially when the Ortho Surgeon misdiagnosed my issue as a simple Lat Tear. The MRI (which I had to beg for) showed a different story. At this point, I have no faith in "highly educated specialists" that expressed to me that he felt my testosterone use is what caused the "Lat Tear"....which wasn't a simple Lat Tear at all....."Stop the Testosterone use...Stay out the gym and come back and see me in 6 weeks".....quote from the "specialists" that I'm sure has a few "Ivy League degrees" also

I certainly don't have a grasp of what healing by regeneration is and what makes it great

This was the exact attitude of the Ortho Surgeon.....

Whateva "Bro"

Dickkhead's picture

The bottom line is of course I hope you avoid surgery and that the injury heals.

I just can't do my own doctoring. The patient as physician thing doesn't work for me. I have no background in medicine or the biological sciences. I can't read and understand your radiologist's notes on your MRI. I would have to look up each word and research it to even really understand it.

Apparently, in this community, while many folk don't make it very far in the gym, there seems to be a wealth of expertise in medicine and treatment options. Never could quite understand that.

I see a deep tissue guy and a chiropractor twice a week just to manage the pain and consequences of heavy lifting. I've had just about all my muscles "Grastoned" to remove the fascial adhesions and promote growth. And yes, all that scraping is very painful. And I have had ART done to eliminate the pain in my knees which worked very well. When the deep tissue guy starts spouting off at me with all his technobabble it so far over my head that my eyes just glaze over.

But of course I wish you the best. Sincerely I do. And, I'm sorry if I left you feeling like I didn't.

HailRazor's picture

Thanks GH
I know you have some knowledge here...that's why I asked the question about HGH (IM-SubQ) speeding up normal recovery (natural healing by scarring) Vs healing by rengeneration

Someone posted awhile back about injecting GH/IGF-1 directly into a knee injury. I though they were crazy...at first.

It seems injecting Growth Factors/Stem Cells directly into the injured tendon can promote regeneration. Through IV has some healing properties also (anti-inflammation)

Healing by scarring can lead to possible shoulder impingement. These shoulder surgeries have a 50/50 outcome. Not to mention the shoulder isn't 100%

The Medical Customer Service thing is a whole other story. It's been an experience

I'll have another MRI after this stem cell treatment and see if it really works

Thanks for the info

Catalyst's picture

I think that's about the only part of my shoulder that hasn't fallen apart Smile

Mine all started with the subscapularis, first time a tear, then twice fully detaching it. As you'd imagine, obviously surgical repair three times in all. Initially a judo injury in my twenties, then went again what three years ago doing cable crossovers. No cartilage left in the joint now, so it grinds a bit but it works mechanically.

Tried a few things. Hgh, IGF, TB500. I'd suggest the latter helped the healing process, but in reality who knows? No way of knowing if I'd left it alone the outcome wouldn't have been exactly the same.

Let me know if you need specifics etc.

HailRazor's picture

Thx

FR Sent

HailRazor's picture

I'm completely off GH (temporarily) and have invested in some IGF1LR3. I want to get some solid info from a Doc (sports medicine) who has experience/knowledge with using supplements VS the usual take these narcotics and stay outta the gym BS

I'm off the high GH Dose because of possible edema/nerve impingement

kodiakGRRL's picture

sorry all mine have been surgically repaired with hardware etc ....

HailRazor's picture

It might be another option (injury is still new).....but.....after my experience with these "shoulder specialist".....I'm not impressed and am looking for other options

How did surgery work for you? Were they complete tears?

kodiakGRRL's picture

well the first three were hack jobs and so far so good with number 4 .. the therapuetic options would have been good except that they ran right in to do surgery

XmadXscientist's picture

I used tb500 to help with tears in my forearms. I think it helps some and have heard positive things from other people with shoulder injuries. I found several studies that show deca speeds tendon healing