article from Iron man magazine about orals too: i'll copy and paste some of it.. again I have the entire article saved in Word or the link that i can send if you send me a Private message -- this will be of great debate on here, but its written by a big name brand magazine we all know as well!

When it comes to the discussion of oral AAS, one topic I see come up more frequently than anything else is the fear of developing liver toxicity. This has led many BB’rs to administer these drugs for very brief periods of time, long before they have reached maximum effectiveness, or in some cases, to discontinue using them altogether. This is a fairly recent phenomenon, with today’s BB’rs advocating shorter and shorter cycles to the point that many have suggested limiting the use of oral steroids to a maximum of 4 weeks, lest the user suffer from serious liver damage, even when administering long-prescribed pharmaceutical preparations.

Certainly, this new idea is in bold contrast to the decades of steroid research which has been conducted in human beings at numerous universities. The point of this article is not meant to minimize the potentially serious side effects associated with irresponsible oral AAS use, but to inform the reader of the truth regarding this class of drugs and their risks to the liver.

Without wasting time, I will get right to the point and say that the toxicity of oral AAS and their overall risks to the liver, in general, have been greatly exaggerated over the last several years, leading many to adopt a position which is both unnecessary and ignorant. The truth is that liver toxicity is not one’s primary health concern when using oral steroids at reasonable dosages; cardiovascular health is, and while cardiovascular risk factors associated with orals AAS can be controlled, that is another topic for another day. To be blunt, in the average healthy person with no pre-existing liver conditions, it would take a small mountain of oral AAS consumed over a considerable period of time, in order to experience irreparable liver damage. The type, dose, and length of administration required to experience liver death is far beyond what the typical gym lifter (or even professional BB’rs) is willing to administer. Otherwise, we would see significantly more people requiring a liver transplant, but let me ask you a question. How many people do you know or how many pro BB’rs have you heard of that have required a liver transplant from oral steroid use?

You see, the liver is a very resilient organ, which is not only capable of sustaining a tremendous workload, but is actually able to repair itself in the event it does sustain damage. This is not surprising, given the fact that filtering toxins from the body is its primary job, necessitating a degree of “toughness” that other organs do not possess. In short, if we could liken the liver to a BB’r, it would be Mr. Olympia. In order for the liver to fail to the point of replacement, it must be provided with an extreme workload, to the point that its filtering capacity is consistently overwhelmed, leading to severe damage and an inability to regenerate. Remember, prescription anabolic steroids were originally developed for conditions which necessitated long-term use, treating maladies such as anemia & osteoporosis and recently they have been more frequently prescribed for those with wasting diseases. These conditions require treatment for longer than 4 weeks if they are to be effective. Therefore, physicians have regularly treated large numbers of patients for decades with doses similar to, and sometimes in excess of, common BB’ing dosages. If oral AAS (in general) presented a degree of risk so great that exceeding 4 weeks of use could lead to serious liver damage, these drugs never would’ve been considered as a viable treatment option in this population.

I am convinced that the reason for the recent change in mind-set regarding optimal cycle length with oral steroids has been largely due to the cycling recommendations of OTC designer steroid companies. Throughout the 70’s, 80’s, 90’ and early 2000’s, most oral cycles ran between 8-12 weeks in length, regardless of the compound employed. This mind-set didn’t begin to change until we saw the immergence of OTC designer steroids in the marketplace; particularly methylated compounds. There were two reasons why we witnessed OTC companies advising such short cycle guidelines, both of which are understandable. 1) Some of the designer steroids released onto the marketplace warranted short cycle lengths, such as M1T. However, many other methylated products could’ve been reasonably run significantly longer. 2) In order to avoid lawsuits by irresponsible users pushing things to the limit, these companies showcased wisdom in their recommendations. After all, some customers would interpret the legal status of these products to mean…”Use without discrimination”…and would administer larger dosages for longer periods of time. By keeping their cycle recommendations well within safety limits, they minimized the possibility of a potential lawsuit.

While there are no doubt some oral AAS which are best left for short-term use (4 weeks or less), the large majority can safely be used for between 8-12 weeks at standard dosages. Some of the oral AAS included in this group include: All traditional/script AAS (including Anadrol), the overwhelming amount of orals sold in the blackmarket, and numerous OTC designers. While I am not going to list appropriate cycle guidelines for each oral steroid in existence, this should provide the reader with an idea of just how many steroids can be responsibly used in the 8-12 week range.

For those of you who are more conservative or desire to take precautions against the hepatotoxic effects of oral AAS, there are several preventative measures, which can be taken to significantly reduce the strain placed on the liver. These include the implementation of various OTC supplements, as well as temporary abstinence from all other unnecessary liver toxic drug, such as alcohol, Tylenol, and various prescription medications. Most are relatively inexpensive and make a worthy addition to any oral steroid cycle, especially when AAS are used regularly.

In the next section of this article, I have re-printed some studies and abstracts from Pub-Med, which demonstrate a more accurate view of oral AAS and their potential to cause liver injury. See below

came across a huge read on another site for Orals.. again doesn't say why except liver.. but it does state to take TUDCA during cycle.. i'll copy and paste some from link and I don't think i'm allowed to copy and paste the link itself:
not sure about you guys, but i'm dead honest with my Dr and can him test anything i need before during and after a cycle.. but reading the info below.. most is foreign to me

I copy and pasted the info into MS Word doc and can forward it to anyone upon private request ---

if anyone is sincere and wants to help or provide guidance to me-- please to so as I'm all ears to trhose that feel they can help

What are signs that my liver is damaged?

When the liver has been damaged by oral steroids there are certain signs that may become obvious to the user.

Here are some of the most common signs indicating you may have a serious liver issue. Warning signs usually appear in the following order, with the later signs being the most serious -

• Reduced appetite
• Nausea and fever
• Excessive Itchiness
• Yellow eyes or skin (jaundice)
• Very dark urine (dark amber colored)
• Bloody stools

Waiting for all these signs to appear means you have waited too long. You want to take action BEFORE these signs appear. This is why I advise getting full lab values on liver function before, during and after any 17-aa oral steroid cycle. If performing lab tests for liver function, the following values are considered normal.

Normal Values -

Total bilirubin range: 0.3-1.7 mg/dl

Alanine aminotransferase (ALT) range: 10-40 IU/L

Aspartate aminotransferase (AST) range: 10-40 IU/L

Alkaline phosphatase (ALP) range: 34-125 IU/L

Gamma-glutamyl-transpeptidase (GGT) range: 7-32 IU/L

Levels above these normal values doesn't necessarily mean you have liver damage. It is common for healthy weight training athletes or bodybuilders to be slightly outside of the "normal" ALT, AST and ALP values. Therefore these "Danger Values" have been established as more appropriate levels to indicate a serious liver toxicity issue. (1-7)

Danger Values -

Total bilirubin: 10 mg/dl or higher

Alanine aminotransferase (ALT): 50 IU/L or higher

Aspartate aminotransferase (AST): 50 IU/L or higher

Alkaline phosphatase (ALP): 150 IU/L or higher

if you feel like we can have a one on one conversation please inbox, or friend request me

please don't post if you have only negative things to say.. its really a waste of time and does no one any good

I do appreciate any/ all help and feedback i receive

i didn't realize the stats are in your profile.. thank you.. I will update this within next couple of days

thanks

out for the weekend, i do appreciate all the feedback.. good/bad

i'm open to suggestions

very lean mass cycle i already have the test/ anavar/ winny -- which is why i was going to do that -- i can get other items but don't want to go crazy and keep it simple with good results

thanks guys

stats are posted genius
my god you're angry.. read the post and reply with something helpful or your wasting everyone's time being mad and telling us about how mad you are

nope i don't know the sides of clen
and I will look up the seriousness of Liver damage

that - I appreciate

ban - lol

not sure why everyone seems to get defensive here
I'm asking for opinions.. other than "its hard on your liver" - i'm not being a d*ck.. and not saying I'm an expert -- i did say i have some experience over the years with Anabolics

test to start, then 4 weeks in winny then annother 4-6 weeks start the anavar

i have experience, but in no means am I an expert.. i put the post up for opinions.. bc the only reason I hear not to take orals or 2 orals is bc your liver.. sh*t many things can affect your liver that I don't do and some of you may.. I'm just trying to get opinions- as again i'm not an expert

so i'll re-do
test 1-14
winny 4-10 (max)
anavar (weeks 10-16)

pct after -- and why not clen.. again bc its an oral? thats fine if thats your ONLY reason. bc i can trhen make my decision from there as there are lots of meds I can take to help min the damage done to the liver while on a cycle

lol
37
6 3
230
experienced over 10 years of roids here and there
taking Pharm grade hgh now

have done plenty of research on drugs in general.. other than "its hard on your liver" i haven't read why that would be a bad idea
test/ winny/ anavar is a good mix gents!
with 4iu hgh