1st cycle, debating incorporating test prop kicker input appreciated!
Im getting everything together for my 1st cycle (12 weeks 500mg test cyp with a prop taper) bloods, money (which I've had a bit of a hiccup in otherwise this order would be placed by now but ill have it resolved soon), just basically getting everything in final place, crossing my T's, dotting my i's, etc.
I plan on using pharma grade products for everything (oils, ancillaries, PCT) from a top rated source that has been delivering quality products for many years and who, according to several advanced members Ive spoken to as well as based on comments made by others, is pretty much on top of everything across the board; exceptional quality.
As a first cycle, do you think it might be worth a shot kickstarting this with say 100-150mg pharma grade test prop EOD for the 1st 4 weeks and taper it down every week as the cyp gets released until I stop at week 4? I'll work out those little details (the tapering numbers, or if you don't think its necessary please feel free to comment) Im just curious if given the proven quality of these products, a first timer might realistically kick things off with test prop without dehabilitating PIP (I'd still avoid quad injections tho, I hear those can be rough, but I'm not expecting painless injections either) if they follow pinning advice such as heating, slowly injecting, spot rotation etc.
I know "stick with 1 compound the first time" is standard advice, and for good reason, but its just another test ester; I don't wanna go messing with orals just yet, and if it goes well, I may very well just do a 8-10 week cycle of test prop as my first cycle: kicks in fast, shorter suppression time, clears faster incase something happens that makes me wanna stop, etc. I especially like the idea of this possibly becoming my actual 1st cycle in terms of the shorter suppression time (8 weeks or so) compared to say 12 weeks of cyp plus the 3-4week prop taper (which isn't necessary but Ive heard it makes the transition off a bit easier).
Sound like something that could realistically work out to my benefit or does it sound like a recipe for a painful mistake? thank you
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alright, 1 final question and based on what I've read on it, I'm guessing it won't be something to worry about.
on a few other boards, I've seen some guys mention symptoms of gyno/puffy nipples AFTER PCT from a test only cycle (no 19nors, just test. or at least thats what was claimed). very few, but each was a similar situation. now, one of the things almost everyone who has run test has told me is the feeling of well being you get while being "on," something moreso than just increased aggression, confidence, or things you'd expect from higher androgen levels. I learned about the relationship between dopamine and prolactin in a few classes, and I know the role dopamine plays in certain psychiatric disorders and certainly how it can affect mood in a positive way, so immediately I wondered if there was any relationship between test and dopamine (and therefore prolactin). well after a little pubmed searching, it appears to be the case that testosterone increases dopamine expression, although I did not find any studies in humans that seemed relevant (they were all in rats for the most part)
so, is it possible that exogenous test>raises dopamine levels, which suppresses prolactin>come off cycle, dopamine levels decrease>prolactin is no longer inhibited, levels rise>could account for these very few reports of post PCT gyno w/o the use of deca, tren, or any 19-nor compounds; just test only?
again, these were rat studies, not human ones. However, there was a pretty decent amount of them, they were all pretty recent, and assuming this relationship between test and dopamine holds true for humans, and given the relationship between prolactin and dopamine, it seems to make sense.
so, ancillary wise, I wanna be prepared for worst case scenario stuff so I don't go freaking out if something happens and be ready to treat it (I'm getting letro just incase, both adex and asin just incase i don't get along with one, etc). is caber something i should have on hand or are things like this too rare to really consider? (I only stumbled upon the first log where this was mentioned and the few others i found after took me quite awhile to find, so I'm assuming its very uncommon).
regarding the 1st post, per the advice I've gotten from members here, I'm gonna just do a 12 week test cyp cycle @500mg/week, no prop kicker or taper, just cyp E3D @250mg/pin followed by typical PCT protocol of nolva, clomid, and aromasin. bloods will be taken precycle, 6 weeks in, and 1 month following PCT completion.
RustyhookerMagnify glass....j223 and read his findings on prolactin. Base cycles should be no issue afrer cycle with high quality pct in effect. The extra tedious efforts are trying to recover from advanced cycles. Not so simple.
Basically, there's enough proven forums here that SHOW your questions are exactly why we try to slow down the cycles to base level for new folks. Imagine trying an advanced cycle only thru reading. Keep it simple....eat and grow!
You are worrying yourself unnecessarily, if you do PCT right and have your AI (if needed) all dialed in through your cycle you have very little to worry about. Sure some guys get gyno easier than others but on a simple test cycle the chances are remote if proper care is taken.
alright cool, thanks. thats what i figured based on the very few accounts I saw mentioning it.
does it seem like a logical explanation though, the whole test, dopamine, prolactin interaction? not asking out of concern, just wanna make sure i understand the interactions correctly .
Not saying anything anyone hasn't already said. 500 is an EXTREMELY dandy dose to start out at for a beginner. In MY personal experience, no prop kicker would be needed for your body. That might be for later down the road once your not responding as well. I'm not a Doctor, but like all the seasoned guys say, get the MOST with the LEAST amount possible. I reference that to the amount in MG's. Just my opinion.
AnonIn my opinion for a first timer i would use one test compound just to get your feet wet and slowly ease into kickers and tapers
Keep this first one simple
Just keep goin about your lifting routine as if your not even using steroids and then all of a sudden your gonna be like damn i got more strength say around week 4
Enjoy this simple cycle and do it right work hard and eat good
Try to eat small meals several times a day if you can cause this first simple cycle could yeild some of the best gains if you do it right
And then 2 weeks after the last shot u start pct get bloods done a month after it is complete oh and get bloods at week 6 too if u can i almost forgot about that
It will let u know where your estro levels are just be sure to order the proper panels
thanks a lot for the responses so far guys, i just figured due to the quality of the product, the PIP issue would be less of concern but I will certainly defer to the advice offed by those more experienced. I mean, on one hand, compound wise, test is test, but then again theres more of a chance of developing test flu symptoms with a shorter ester like prop so thats something to consider. And yeah, hell of alot of pinning. I do injections fairly frequently for work so Im no stranger to doing them procedure wise but I can imagine how much harder it'd be on yourself.I just liked the idea of really feeling something within a week and using the same compound (assuming test flu isn't an issue) vs say dbol or something if the pain was bearable. too impatient i guess lol.
well the kickstart is still a maybe, although it seems most people are advising against it. I mean hypothetically, if PIP wasn't an issue, or just a very minor, manageable one (however unrealistic that might be, just for arguments sake), would you still advise against a prop kicker? At the very least Id like to do the end taper just to get a feel for the compound so I have some experience with it for subsequent cycles.
thanks again for the input
I would so no not because of PIP, but because of controlling your E2 and getting your AI dialed in. You have no idea how much your body converts the test into estro. You would have to just guess at the AI dosage and hope it works. You could easily crash your e2 or get highly elevated pretty fast. With the E/C ester its so much slower and easier to control.
As far as a taper goes I would say don't do that either. Just come off cold turkey so you know what that feels like. It will be good to know for in the future. Lets say you are on a test e cycle and the first vial is good but the next vial is a different batch that's bunk, well you will know the feeling of coming off cold turkey and be able to detect that, fix it and possibly save a cycle. Just my .02.
From what ive been told by some vets on this site they would probably advise a prop taper before using it as a kicker bro..by time u run the taper you will at least know how your body has been reacting to the test e..so if you feel any difference either negative or positive you can factually say it is the prop making you feel that way.anyway you look at it prop sucks when it comes to pip and you better have 6 rotation spots if you use it cause each spot will be sore a few days especially being virgin muscles.
Test E only would be my recommendation. Since its your first cycle your pins will be hitting virgin muscle and due to the short ester of Test P you will be pinning multiple times a week and more than likely will be sore as shit all over from having to rotate your injection sites. As far as coming off cycle I would bet you probably will not notice much of a difference except the decrease in strength but if you do a proper PCT, keep your training up and continue with your diet you should do fine and recover well.
As a side note I would also recommend reducing your BF first if you are still at 20%, getting down to at least 15% but even lower would yield better results.
He's a powerlifter not a bb dropping to 13% is a great way for him to lose a ton of stregnth.
you can say that again man, I even id this one nice and slow, adjusted training appropriately, STILL lost strength on my squat and everything else is pretty much stagnant, just not making any progress or having to really cheat and OOMPH that last rep up just to match the last workout. and Im def not 13% either lol. Dunno what it is, I just ALWAYS lose strength on big lifts (usually squat and bench) and everything else stops moving with maybe a few stupid isolation exceptions but I'm not really concerned with those. and trust me I did this last few weeks of dieting nice and slow, refeeds, etc. Just born to play the strength game I guess.
anyways, just wanna say thanks to everyone for their input, think I'm gonna go with the experienced masses here and keep it simple with 500mg test cyp/week; bloods before, 6 weeks in and post PCT to assess recovery and then maybe Ill play around with an additional compound/adjust dosages based on my goals at that time
so thanks again for making it clear who to go to as well as your advice in general.
so again thanks for the input, iron thanks a lot for your advice; you know who's gonna be hooking it up. already got a promo on the way and ill be ordering the cyp and everything else within a day or 2. hopefully ill be posting in a few weeks about how painless my first pin was
thanks again guys
X2..definently get bf down to 13-15% before starting.. good catch TMW I didn't even pay attention to his bf.
yeah I actually had been working on that, gotta update my stats. Im not sure exactly what my bf is now but definitely below 20, not quite 15. I powerlift so i don't really care about appearance up to a certain point but i am aware of the increased risks of estrogenic side effects like gyno, high BP, etc associated with starting at too high of a body fat and that was the reason I stopped slapping more weight on the bar and focused on a ~5% reduction
First cycle is always test e or c only bro..leave the prop alone for another cycle.I was given advice to run just test to see how ur body reacts to that compound before you add anymore..don't complicate things brother..1-12 weeks test at 500mg week..take.an a.i the entire duration of the cycle, I personally used 6.25 mg ed of aromasin and it worked great foe me but you may require different dosages.only blood test will be able to tell you how to adjust the a.i.. wait 3 weeks after last pin and begin regular pct protocol of clomid/nolva 100/50 first 2 weeks and 50/20 last 2 weeks..keep it simple man foe the first one..I took the advice and I had a great first cycle.. just train hard and have a rock solid diet and you will blow the fck up. Like the dude below said, u don't need a kick start cause u almost have a placebo effect the first few weeks cause ur so excited, so drop the prop and u will beef up quick bro.
MultipurposeIt's not a bad idea for a prop kickstart and taper down at the end, but for a first cycle that's a lot of injections. I remember my first couple cycles the injections sometimes felt like someone hit me in the ass with a baseball bat as hard as they could, next day I'd have a hard time sitting down in the car and so on. Did test E my first cycle and for me the first 3 weeks I trained extremely hard waiting for the test to kick in, almost like a placebo effect, when it kicked in at about 3 1\2 weeks I was doing chest and noticed my normal heavy sets were feeling light and raised the weight 20 pounds and still hit my 8 reps. IMO it's best to do just one compound first cycle and it's well worth the wait for it to kick in, you can get your last minute diet and training changes in place. As for the suppression and recovery, as long as you run a proper pct and use hcg along the way I don't think you'll have any issues.