posted Mon, 08/11/2014 - 17:29
2147
+ 2 Want to hear what you have to say about natty reboot
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Sciencentifically speaking not just what you read on here and regurgitate what do you know .... Cycle on and off pct after pct after pct .... Vs. Cycle and low dose cruise back into cycle and eventually pct
In the end which does more damage to your natural testosterone ?? Staying on longer or constantly restarting it over and over and over ??
I'm very curious to hear your knowledge
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pretty happy with the turn out and knowledge dropped here thank you guys .
ok... i'll try again...
Facts
Blasting:
all forms of AAS are derived from testosterone in some shape or form. as a result they begin the negative feedback loop. this loop suppresses production and release of the gonadatropins (LH & FSH) at the hypothalamus and pituitary gland. since these hormones play significant roles in stimulating testosterone production in the leydig cells of the testes, their suppression subsequently suppresses this area as well. basic info..
PCT:
with PCT, the opposite occurs. SERMS act most beneficially to stimulate the production of the gonadatropins at the hypothalamus and pituitary. the presence of LH & FSH stimulates the leydig cells to produce natty test.
HCG:
this is an exogenous hormone that mimics LH. contrary to what most believe, it is not synthetic. it is derived from the urine of pregnant women (makes you feel great about using it, doesn't it). although it isn't LH, it is perceived as such. the result is a combination of positive and negative feedback signals on the axis,. the mimicked action will stimulate the leydig cells to function. however, because it is perceived as LH, it exhibits suppression on the hypothalamus and pituitary.
Cruising:
there is nothing but negative feedback taking place on all aspects of the HPTA axis. the exogenous test effects in the same way that a full on blast will. suppresses hypothalamus, pituitary, testes, and adrenal. adding hcg benefits by preventing longterm shutdown of the testes (leydig cells), but it doesn't assist the parts of the axis controlling gonadatropins, which not only play a role in producing test but also in the production and motility of sperm.
Opinions
I believe that the shorter the time any portion of the axis spends physiologically shut down, the better the chances of rebooting and regaining normal function. that, IMHO, is the bottom line.
+1 thanks for posting that information after the mishap you had trying to the first time.
I have a buddy that is prescribed 1250ius of HCG 2x a week because he has secondary hypogonadism where his testes work but his pituitary isn't kicking out lh or fsh in sufficient levels anymore, whether it be a problem with the pituitary or the hypothalamus not releasing gonadotropin releasing hormone is unknown. He's in his 50's and insists it was tren that did it to him, he did love his tren so that wouldn't surprise me. Just wanted to share that as an example of how the HP can lead to shutdown of the HPTA since most think only in terms of the boys downstairs
I was wondering if clomid had any effect on lh and fsh while on cycle like it does in pct? In all reality one would probably want access to just enclomiphene if it does because the estro sides of the other isomer in clomid aren't much fun. Any insight or thoughts are appreciated please keep in mind these are just ideas I"m not encouraging anything here, been thinking more and more about how it is too bad we don't have something that shuts off or bypasses the negative feedback loop keeping the HPTA moving along while on cycle instead of only doing a partial job like hcg does.
I can't really say whether clomid will affect the levels or not while running exogenous test. My doctor is under the impression that it does and prescribes it as an alternative to hcg during trt treatment. Only way to know for sure is to run it and check levels.
thanks for getting back to me, if I could track down some enclomiphene (androxal) instead of regular clomid which contains both enclomiphene and zuclomiphene I'd do a guinea pig for the community. It's the enclomiphene in clomid that stimulates lh and fsh the zuclomiphene is attributed to the estrogenic sides which hit me pretty hard and I wouldn't want to tolerate unless I had to.
Clomid gets used off label for secondary hypogonadism but currently I believe enclomiphene is in stage III of FDA approval for use in TRT, initial numbers seemed good I believe the mean was like 860 total test and it performed better than adrogel in both total and free test I believe it was something I read on pubmed.
So if anyone knows of a source that carries actual enclomiphene (androxal) not clomid, pm me and I'll do a self test and get checks for the community in the name of broscience which some eventually becomes just science which is what happened with clomid in the first place =)
Hmm.. Good research. I've never even looked beyond the name of clomid to see what ingredients do what.
thanks, like it when I have something worth contributing,
clomid is a 50/50 mix of the two, so dosing would be half of clomid for all of our purposes, and I believe enclomiphene is also the less toxic of the two, lower toxicity is always a good thing
Awesome... I just learned in 5 minutes reading this what my doc has been trying to explain to me for 10 years...
Tink22(((Below is all my opinion any won't agree many have been doing things longer than me. I could be a complete fuck head and no on should take my advice. Learn for yourself. Do what you want.
I believe cruising is more effective. I know many won't agree that's fine. Of course there will be people's typical "slave to the pin?"
"No children?" I'll address those in the form of my opinion later if people care to read that far....
First I want to say I feel hormones can be a very healthy choice. Some can lead to negatives if done improperly or too long...yes!
But overall I think hormone use can lead to more healthy lifestyle inside and out with, of course their can be abuse with anything.
I personally do not understand pct, coming off time on equals time off. I don't see the benefits of being on a 12-20 week cycle just to stop, take some shit to reboot you and struggle to hold onto what you gained till you can do it all again 12-20 weeks from that. I see a simple safe cruise ore beneficial and healthy for people interested in this lifestyle. You hold on to gains much more efficiently with a simple dose of test if your body "needs" a break I say needs because the body is smart it will give you signs of hey leave me alone for a bit you're gonna fuck up your ride. Cruise for 4-10 whatever amounts seems effective till your ready again. The mental stability is far better with this method as well. No depressed feeling, dick not working nonsense .
So now, slave to the pin......
Slave wtf.. I don't know why others go to gym and take aas, but for me it's lifestyle. Not a I want smexy for the beach or really need to look good for my wedding. 24/7 lifestyle. Yeah sometimes you take a break splurge some pizzas and milkshakes in your belly. You always come back tho if it's a lifestyle. If you can't handle taking a pin once or twice a week than how the fuck do you go to the gym 4-5 times a week? How can you wake up and eat what you're suppose to when it's time to get in tight shape.
Children.... Many many many people conceive while on and I mean while on for years. If you're really worried get sperm count checked before, freeze some juices. Better yet adopt cause there's lots of children in this world that could use a good home.
I'm really hungry and going to eat some fish and rice with schracha cause it's awesome. Idk maybe I'm dumb and immature I don't recommend anyone listen to me. This is all my opinion.
Last opinion of mine idk about you but when I get older I will be on to enjoy my later years.
Well obviously I agree being on more increases gains and I also have conceived my beautiful very big lol baby boy 16 weeks into a cycle so that is true as well
Thank you for your opinion
My opinion is there are many schools of thought on this, Meaning a bunch of opinions that are horseshit. There opinions. My personal take on it is the safe way to do it is just the way we teach/advise on here. There is alot of variables. For example, at 19 years old and fucken stupid I bounced back with no pct. At 42 I take my pct more serious then the run itself as I know now at my age it is what is best for me. My endo is a female and she does bloods for me, draws when I need a RBC reduction (EQ) runs bloods every 3-4 weeks while I'm on, and helps me with the restart. All Pharm grade PCT and she is aggressive with it. She also verifies that I have come off when I said I would as she knows that a cruise between two long runs will cripple my HPTA and her opinion is that iI will be TRT if I don't do exactly what we preach on this sight...Her words, what kills me is she polks around on this sight and is in awe at the amount of medical/clinical knowledge available with regards to AAS use. She's a fucken doctor and she approves of the way the sight is run... Now my question is why would anyone want to take that chance?
thanks for that info +1 but I have a couple questions if ya would, if your doing a long run your hpta is crippled/severely shut down did your endo mention why cruising between would cripple your hpta further causing trt when even a short run shuts you down? I'm guessing time shut down which makes sense and the consensus here. Also what's your endo's take on hcg? I would think hcg whether long or short cycles or blast n cruise could at least prevent primary hypo where the leydigs stop responding as long as excessive dosages aren't used to damage the leydigs but don't think it does anything for secondary hypo or when the pit stops making lh and fsh at adequate levels. So a thought I've been tossing around one of you more experienced guys could probably help with is there anything to keep the pituitary kicking out lh and fsh while on however you roll to work to possibly reduce the risk of secondary hypo when on? Does clomid stimulate levels when on is a thought but not much research into that I can find.
OK I'll try to answer but I believe some of your questions are above me. The cruise idea is just what you thought in her opinion, she would rather me be shut dow for 20 weeks than 40 because it is easier to restart. I have proven it with her...HCG she doesn't recomend it so I don't do it. I have no experiance with HCG use, I read a lot about it on the forums but it is nothing I have done therefore I try not to comment on it. The clomid question while on, I personally don't know anyone that has tried it. I have not tried it. Im a pretty simple man, I know what works for me and I do what she says. Her thoughts are she would rather help me do it correctly/safely than try to fix me up later. As unethical as it sounds she just has a really open mind. Now I also don't do crazy shit, she runs my bloods and knows how I'm dosing and what I'm taking. It works for me... Doss or Catylist may be able to better answer the questions above, sorry man I just don't have the answers.
thanks for getting back to me bro, curious why she doesn't recommend hcg, I know there is a risk of desensitizing the leydigs but I figured that was more of a problem with individuals that use 1000s of ius at a time. I personally have found that it makes a tremendous difference in how I feel and ease of recovery in the past.
Thank you for the opinion!!
See even my opinions are just horseshit...LoL I just try to explain what I do and why. I'm getting older so I try to stick with what the docs tell me, I don't take chances anymore...Thats not to say I don't fucking despise coming off. When I come off now I am planning my next run,counting days, and waiting for the word that I'm good to go. One of the reasons I am a fan of this site over others is guys like Doss, and the rest of the big brains who take the time to explain the how it works...What I would have done to have this recourse when I was 25!
I just spent 30 fkn minutes typing some shit on my phone. Hit send and my session had times out and logged me off. Fk it...
Well fuck doss
I'd be interested to see something solid on this as well instead of theory. Many that cycle do not allow enough recovery time to fully/truly recover between cycles either.
It is like an old car that you own, if you let it sit in the driveway for a year or two when you decide to start it chances are it wont start.Same when staying on for longer,If you decide to come off after a year your system may not start back up
Or like any car start it enough drive it enough it falls apart anyway ???