+ 6 Proviron: busting the myths
Well; I did a lot of research on this fascinating product to find out that most of the broscience you hear is completely false and also the placebo effect is pretty high with people. Let's get into the details a bit shall we?
Trials
In one small scale clinical trial of depressed patients, an improvement of symptoms which included anxiety, lack of drive and desire was observed.[2] In patients with dysthymia, unipolar, and bipolar depression significant improvement was observed.[2] In this series of studies, mesterolone lead to a significant decrease in LH and testosterone levels. In another study, 100 mg mesterolone cipionate was administered twice monthly. With regards to plasma T levels, there was no difference between the treated vs untreated group, and baseline LH levels were minimally affected.[3]
Mesterolone is the chemical name for Proviron. It is a very interesting anabolic though it's use in bodybuilding has very little value. The most common reason to even consider including it in your stack is for anti-estrogenic activity. Before the use of SERMs like Clomid and Nolvadex, this product was beneficial.
An amount of AAS slightly over the amount that would be manageable without Proviron became tolerable with it. However, the effect is indeed very marginal, and much better anti-e's exist.
The most common reason this is used is to "boost" your libido. It is true that when added to normal androgen, it does have an androgenic effect that improves libido. Bear in mind that AAS has the same ability. In a cycle, adding Proviron accomplishes nothing. Such as in the case of Deca which may affect libido, Proviron provides no greater help against that than do various other AAS.
One of the interesting things about Proviron is that while it lowers shbg; it is virtually useless for building muscle.
Contrary to common belief, Proviron is inhibitory of the HPTA. Using it during the recovery phase as part of post-cycle therapy is counterproductive. Occasional recreational use presents no problem.
Proviron sometimes is used in female bodybuilding, but it almost undoubtedly the worst ratio of anabolic effect to virilizing effect of any anabolic in use. The value is in fat loss and “hardening,” but obviously there are better choices. Most of that is from anti-e effect, which Nolvadex can accomplish. And for an androgen component, there are better choices, such as Primobolan.
Proviron is not hepatotoxic, as it is not 17-alkylated.
Tablets are typically 25 mg, and taken one or two at a time. Amounts greater than this have no further effect on improving libido off-cycle.
So there you have it. Placebo effect while using this product is very strong in people; it's amazing what your brain can do when you convince it. More reading can be found here. So many sites and (sources) glamorize this product and to be honest I think its only to sell it. I fell victim to the placebo effect myself. The more you know the better you can prepare for what's ahead of you. I want you to dig deep and read some of the studies.
- Bookmark
- 6
- 0
How often should do people take proviron? 2x, 3x a day? how many mg/day?
Depends on what you are trying to achieve with it. It's half life is around 12 hrs so twice a day, morning and evening. Test is highest in morning so take it first thing when you wake up for the unbinding affect.
RustyhookerThe items you named are exactly why it is used. Lowering sbh,, libido and mild ai. Lowering the sbh is the top reason.
As your body fights for balance of the axis, it raises sbh to stop all the testosterone. Thats the bodies job or it won't have balance.
The other chem that lowers sbh is winstrol. Winstrol is harsh on lipids and joints.
Thanks mack. This was a nice counterpoint to an "accepted" method. This is the healthy debate that makes the process of education possible. +1
Speaking of Viking and Carlos...
NEWS TEAM ASSEMBLE
Yeah i hear ya!.....................i have nothing to give to this thread bro.
Think u could drop a nuke up in here with your knowledge lol
I dont have any numbers or studies on proviron BUT i do want to share my experience. I do feel great, euphoric and high libido on cycle without proviron and i can see the difference when I add it. The difference is jump in libido, i actually took 50mg this morning and experienced it too. Actually i get too much jump in libido because it makes sex feel better so i dont last as long. Can that be placebo?- highly doubt it. Im also taking proviron as part of a cutting stack, low test + var, in hopes to get my skin thinner, will that happen i dont know.
I was with ya all the way till the skin thinning bull shit. Lol.
Not backing anybody but im pretty sure carlos danger and vike both said provi will help thin out your skin. I believe carlos was the one who explained how and why.
AnonHow did my name get thrown in here?
my mistake bro, i must have had misread something somwhere and I should have double checked before posting. Sorry for the confusion man
AnonNo sweat. I stumbled on this conversation by chance
Wanted to say sorry again bro I was in the wrong getting mad we need ya in these forums
AnonStop it bro. Just don't talk about my family and you can pretty much say anything you want to me. We family around here. No family agrees on everything and this family always, always has each other's back. It's how we get down homie
Please dont make me look and sound fkn stupid on the board bro............... i never mentioned shit like that EVER.
I use provi purely for its AI properties............... thats all!!
Wasn't my intentions at all vike.....I apologize for the confusion
No problem........ i just dont want these young fuckers thinking im some stupid cunt and thinking they can have a pop at me............. the fucks dont realise this is my matrix and i dont take kindly to having dirt thrown at me.
Gotcha bawse...
I'll have to look into that. I thoroughly understand the idea of the "paper thin skin" look achieved through death mode low body fat and complete riddance of water. I've seen and felt that. But as far as actual thinning of the skin, as in your integumentary system being altered to the point that there is somehow less of it thus being "thinner", I just can't get behind that idea. If that's what you're in fact implying.
If you could share some links that'd be tight.
Yea thats interesting actually, i suffered a traumatic injury to my right foit and lower leg a number of years ago that has left me with a condition where im suffering changes the affected dermis as well as bone in the area and to my understanding any actual changes in how the skin works or regenerates is about the last thing you want. Its left me with severe chronic pain and a narcotics habbit, albeit a usefull one thats in control, but a habit none the less.
Yeah maybe I should have worded it differently bro. I wasn't implying that it alters the actual tissue itself (sorry for the confusion). If you have already been to a low bf% with minimal water then im sure they meant it can "help" achieve that look .
There we go. I've actually had bros spitting their broscience at me about literally thinning the skin.
I am honestly glad people are chiming in here and keeping this civil; I know enough that by me saying Placebo I touched a lot of nerves with people. This post is meant to open eyes and think outside the box for a moment. Most of what we do has very little studies to back up effects. But when negative studies are performed and found to be conclusive; we all tend to get upset because we want to believe. We also then get bandwagoners that will try and counter every and any argument. If it does work for you; then it is what it is. But if you honestly see any true advanced and experienced bodybuilders; they will tell you that they do not use it. Some may have tried it and let's be honest; who wouldn't try it considering how high of a pedestal people put it on? But research is so key and there are more studies done on this then you would imagine.
It's the same as Anavar. Everyone will swear that it helps you lose weight.....Of course it DID, back when it was REAL. Did you know real Anavar only comes in 2.5mg doses and is expensive as fuck? Please don;t debate that statement it will go off topic. The point I am making on any of this is trial and error. I posted the studies on it in this post so it's up to you to read them and follow up. You might either be surprised or not. Once again thank's for keeping this civil for a change! I love debates without any swinging dicks
No reason for this not to be civil brother, and the mention of placebo should not butthurt anyone either.
One thing to remember , that is a fact, all drugs effect everyone differently. Some substances are a godsend for one person and a nightmare for the next.
As for real anavar not being available .... j/k not gonna touch that one ;)
I'm an extreme skeptic and always downplay the effects of anything until its a serious change in order to rule out the placebo effect. And when proviron is added to my stacks, the difference is extreme. I'm happy and horny as a mthrfkr on proviron. Some things like this come along and I can get in on the mythbusting, but not this one. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, proviron just isn't for you in particular? There's a hell of a lot of guys on here with more knowledge and experience than you and I combined multiplied by 100 who I have a feeling are going to greatly disagree with your assessment here.
My conclusion has still not being proved because like everyone else; you used it on cycle. On any of your cycles that you did not take proviron did you have no libido and no sense of good feelings? I already explained I was taking it off cycle and there was no difference. So I did more research on it and the only ones saying it was beneficial are people who were on a cycle. Proviron was created as another anti-e controller and when Nolvadex and Clomid came around it was "shelfed." It has to be used while not on anything to see if it really does the things everyone "claims." It's like an "ass dyno" you fix your car and it feels like its faster; but until you go and dyno it you have no idea. This needs to be taken off cycle for 2 weeks and bloods get drawn. Or just taken off cycle.
Out of curiosity why were you taking it off cycle? More than one member here has ran provi off cycle, pulled bloods and shown shut down.
I am TRT and my Endo told me it MIGHT help with some of my libido issues that came up. After 3 weeks of nothing noticeable at all he switched me to Nolva and that's when I started to get it back. The problem with it is the only true way to tell if it is actually working or not is to not be on any AAS at all and taking it. After 10 days you will know if it is working. That is the toughest part of this; when you already have a ton of test going through your system of course your libido will be sky high; especially if you are taking an AI and keep all E levels stable.
Ah I see, forgot you were trt Grygst. While you raise a valid point in theory, I just can't help going with what my body is telling me and not just a placebo affect.
Sometimes people just need to slow down and take things in over the long haul instead of trying to condense their experience into a matter of weeks or a year. Nothing wrong with speaking of your own experience and what YOU felt or think but to put this much effort into debunking a well proven supplement that you only used for three weeks is not well advised.
Nailed it.
Welcome to the party; here is your "proof."
The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.
Mesterolone is useless for infertility. A year after the Varma study, 1989, the World Health Organization published a study demonstrating, "[n]o significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups." [Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility. Int J Androl 1989;12:254-64.]
In 1991, a study concludes, "Because similar semen improvement also occurred in the placebo controls, our findings cast doubt on the possible usefulness of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility." [Gerris J, Comhaire F, Hellemans P, Peeters K, Schoonjans F. Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility. Fertil Steril 1991;55:603-7.]
These confirm an earlier study from 1983. [Wang C, Chan CW, Wong KK, Yeung KK. Comparison of the effectiveness of placebo, clomiphene citrate, mesterolone, pentoxifylline, and testosterone rebound therapy for the treatment of idiopathic oligospermia. Fertil Steril 1983;40:358-65.] Treatment with the mesterolone (100 mg/day) therapy did not result in a significant increase in the mean sperm concentration or pregnancy in the partners.
Proviron is useless in promoting erythropoiesis (formation of red blood cell elements) and bone formation (a mixed effect of testosterone through the androgen receptor and estradiol receptor), both evidence of androgenic activity. Mesterolone (100 mg/d) is ineffective in raising hemoglobin and hematocrit levels significantly from baseline in individuals with hypogonadism. The study cites that Mesterolone did not increase serum testosterone (but also did not mention that there is a decrease). [Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Eur J Med Res 1997;2:293-8.]
As recent as 2003, mesterolone (100 mg/d) for 6 months administered to hypogonadal males failed to significantly raise bone mineral density (BMD). Treatment with testosterone undecanoate (160 mg/d), testosterone enanthate 250 mg (every 21 days), or a single subcutaneous implantation of 1,200 mg crystalline testosterone did result in BMD increases. [Schubert M, Bullmann C, Minnemann T, Reiners C, Krone W, Jockenhovel F. Osteoporosis in male hypogonadism: responses to androgen substitution differ among men with primary and secondary hypogonadism. Horm Res 2003;60:21-8.]
Erythropoiesis and bone formation are positive aspects of androgens useful under certain clinical conditions. AAS consistently have adverse effects on lipid profiles that are generally observed as a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). In 1999, twenty years after the study cited by MaxRep [Nikkanen V. Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone. Andrologia 1979;11:33-6.] proviron was found to adversely effect the lipid profile in hypogonadal men. The study by abstract analysis is hard to detail but an adverse effect of proviron is reported. Also, the study reports on serum testosterone levels with androgen treatments. Androgen substitution led to no significant increase of serum testosterone in the proviron group, subnormal testosterone in the testosterone undecanoate group, normal testosterone in the testosterone enanthate group, and high-normal testosterone in the crystalline testosterone group. The message is proviron did not affect the HPTA. [Jockenhovel F, Bullmann C, Schubert M, et al. Influence of various modes of androgen substitution on serum lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal men. Metabolism 1999;48:590-6.] The same author reports that proviron administration has no effect on serum FSH or testosterone. [Nikkanen V. The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH. Andrologia 1978;10:299-306.]
LOL
I know right? A lot to read.
Understandable. Here's something on the topic but a little different. When we were kids we had a friend that we used to trick. We would take him behind the school and put tobacco and oregano in a pipe and tell him it was weed. He would smoke it and swear to us he was high. His eyes would get red; he would smile a lot and laugh like he was genuinely stoned. He believed it was weed so his brain responded by thinking he was high. it wasn't until we hit high school that we told him the truth and he argued with us that we were lying and it was weed because he did get stoned. We did this multiple times with the same effect to other friends except one guy we knew. The reason he knew we were lying is because he was a stoner. We were bastard kids I know but we were curious at the same time. And that is what has made me such a skeptic as I got older.
X2
Used it with mast to control estrogen and had great success. No need for adex. Also the increased libido and general good mood is a plus. +1 for the great post. I love a good debate!
Great reading. I've curious to try it with a Test/Proviron cycle but I also had my doubts, I guess nothin better than try & see. I might do lab before & after taking Bayern Provi to show the results but it's gonna be a while before I jump on AAS again +1
Interesting thread Mack. What Ive noticed with proviron from my experience is a very noticeable increase in libido. The other thing I notice is anything over 25mg/day my prostate gets an attitude and has me pissing all through the nite.
Saw palmetto took care of that for me
I Love a good ole fashion AAS debate, Exp users come and weight in your personal experience! Good Post IRSIHMACK, push the envelope and question the norm, Will be intrigued to hear what other have to say. Plus 1 for the topic or post
Placebo effect? Keeps libido and desire maximized. More free testosterone from binding SHGB, therefore more testosterone in utilized and less aromatizing to estogen which run through out a cycle will give you a drier look and keep e2 under control, compared to not using it, you will hold more water, look smoother and E2 will likey be higher and your libido may tank. I use proviron every cycle and it's no placebo effect from my experience.
And you base this on what? How you feel? You dont think this all came from the aas you are on? This is what I am talking about. You cant prove the proviron was responsible for that. Try taking proviron by itself off cycle with nothing else and get bloodwork done. You will be very dissapointed. Tests proved it was so little that it was considered only if nothing else was available.
Why would you take it off cycle if it's proven to suppress LH. I'm basing effects on when I've cycled without proviron and when I've cycled with proviron in the stack there is a big difference as in dryness, less bloat, feeling like your cycle is in full swing and grandiose feeling and libido is up, I'm less moody and generally in a good mood because hormones are more in balance and utilized. If you have ran enough proviron with cycle and compare them to your cycles without then you'd know what I was talking about. The effects are subtle but to me it is worth it in my cycles, i know it makes a difference.
All I know is I took it with Test only, and water was down muscles harder and vascularity was more noticeable. I had no intention of taking it for libido. It'll be in all of my cycles. Everyone is different. What's your experience with it?
i took it with my trt dose...no difference, on cycle, couldnt tell because the extra test was doing its job. doctor prescribed..no difference. everyone is different. tbol djd a hell of a better job then proviron for me for lowering shbg.
Ive used bayer provi before and really couldnt tell any difference. Im probably gonna try i again on anither cycle before I say fuck it.
Pharma provi after a few days has a very noticeable affect on my libido where ugl at times has had little to zero. Not saying the facts you provided are wrong about placebo but that's just from my own experience.
I just started proviron and so far I think its great. I don't see how any of the info you stated shows that's its a placebo effect. People use proviron for sex drive and free test. So far after three days my sex drive is already much better and have been tearing girls up. I don't know about free test but for what I want it for its awesome.