+ 19 What should my numbers look like on 125mg,300mg,600mg?Testosterone dose-response in healthy young men 18-35yr
Was reading lab reports like I always do. So I see a question that keeps popping up. When I see that I try to give you an answer. You know the old "What should my levels be at xxx dose of TEST E?" I've seen bloods that look good to me but yet posts where the person says" it should be higher or it's really low." SO what should it be? I found a study that was done on 61 healthy normal 18-35 yr olds. Dose of Testosterone E was given by injection once per week for 20 wks. One thing I found interesting is how low doses affected base numbers negatively.Sort of what happens when we are on PCT and coming off cycle.Think about it. You can see how negative feed back loop affects numbers. Keep in mind that Test levels are always higher in this age group as there is less body fat which in turn has an effect on estradiol. Estro is usually always lower in this age group. Another thing is that SHBG is lower when we are younger and steadly rises as we age. Anyway here are the numbers that you can use as a blueprint to determine if your numbers are in line. All subject were given Pharma Human Grade Test E so we can compare our UGL numbers to Pharma which we know is dosed correctly. It will also give you an idea of what your baseline numbers should be, what your free test should look like etc.. For the older guys these numbers will be lower for you due to the things I just mentioned. These are averages so read the study to see the highs and lows of the different things that were measured. You may learn something. As always if you like this let me know. If you don't speak up.
Get the complete study here http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.long#T2
Table 2.
Serum total and free testosterone, LH, FSH, SHBG, and IGF-I levels
Testosterone
Dose, Baseline, Week 16, Change from Baseline,
Testosterone (ng/dl) (overall ANOVA P = 0.0001)
25 mg, 593 ± 48, 253 ± 66 −340 ± 85
50 mg, 566 ± 78, 306 ± 58 −260 ± 64
125 mg, 553 ± 53, 570 ± 75 57 ± 75
300 mg, 653 ± 50, 1,345 ± 139 691 ± 143
600 mg, 632 ± 63, 2,370 ± 150 1,737 ± 156
Free testosterone (pg/ml) (overall ANOVA P = 0.0001)
25 mg, 62 ± 6, 29 ± 5 −33 ± 8
50 mg, 57 ± 6, 32 ± 3 −25 ± 5
125 mg, 49 ± 5, 52 ± 8 3 ± 7
300 mg, 71 ± 7, 138 ± 21 67 ± 18
600 mg, 64 ± 5, 275 ± 30 211 ± 31
LH (U/l) (overall ANOVA P = 0.8054)
25 mg, 3.5 ± 0.4, 0.3 ± 0.1 −3.2 ± 0.4
50 mg, 3.8 ± 0.3, 0.6 ± 0.3 −3.0 ± 0.4
125 mg, 3.4 ± 0.3, 0.5 ± 0.1 −2.8 ± 0.4
300 mg, 3.7 ± 0.5, 0.6 ± 0.1 −3.5 ± 0.5
600 mg, 3.3 ± 0.3, 0.6 ± 0.4 −2.9 ± 0.4
SHBG (nmol/l) (overall ANOVA P = 0.0001)
25 mg, 29.1 ± 2.9, 28.5 ± 3.6 −0.6 ± 2.9
50 mg, 24.4 ± 3.4, 21.1 ± 3.2 −3.3 ± 1.1
125 mg, 33.1 ± 4.2, 28.9 ± 3.8 −4.2 ± 2.6
300 mg, 31.4 ± 3.8, 22.4 ± 3.9 −9.1 ± 3.7
600 mg, 40.1 ± 4.9, 20.6 ± 3.2 −19.5 ± 2.8
IGF-I (ng/ml) (overall ANOVA P = 0.0001)
25 mg, 268 ± 26, 261 ± 35 −7 ± 19
50 mg, 246 ± 14, 225 ± 12 −20 ± 10
125 mg, 299 ± 24, 282 ± 31 −18 ± 17
300 mg, 314 ± 24, 388 ± 30 74 ± 28
600 mg, 227 ± 20, 304 ± 21 77 ± 13
Values on each day represent the mean (±SE) of all available values on that day. However, the change represents the difference between paired values only. Treatment values represent the day 113 (week 16) values, obtained 1 wk after the previous testosterone injection. We used week 16 rather than week 20 values because week 20 values were not always drawn exactly 1 wk after the previous injection. LH and FSH, luteinizing and follicle-stimulating hormones, respectively; SHBG, sex hormone-binding globulin; IGF-I, insulin-like growth factor I. To convert total testosterone levels to nmol/l, multiply by 0.03467. To convert free testosterone levels to pg/ml, multiply by 3.467.
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I think the reason we see dropped numbers from baseline on low dose test is because they were given GnRH agonist
brilliant info there
This is the study that all newcomers and vets should reference to in regards to dosages, effects on lean mass, hemoglobin, psa, HDL, strength, and the like. This is the basis of research that I used when I first started on this site and why I decided to stick with a 300mg/week dose regardless of many telling me to go higher. This and Llewellyns bible on AAS. Invaluable information in this study
MAN ty...great shit
+1
Great read man. Now if I can only get my Dr to up my TRT to 300/wk lol.
RustyhookerNice to see science based proof that even low doses of testosterone is enough for a cycle. It's common to post 500/wk first time when in many cases much less is still just as effective
Your absolutely right Rusty. Your body being the perfect machine will fight to stay in balance when you use higher doses. The whole idea is to use a dose that causes muscles to grow. When you use more it throws the body way out of balance then your fighting higher estrogen, water retention,HBP, lipids out of wack and you have to use more compounds to counter these effects. Recovery is harder.You waste a lot gear. Now this doesn't apply to the pro who has been at it for yrs and yrs as he needs the higher doses to keep making gains.
This is great but wanted to point out two errors:
Older men actually show a stronger response to injected T than young men. Even though their baseline levels are lower their blood levels after injecting a given dose of T end up higher for older men. For example 300mg/week of test E gives 1784 ± 173. That is 400 points more than for young men.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2004-1184
Also, the negative values at low doses aren't caused by any feedback. The experimenters shut down all T produced naturally during this study so the negative values just show that 25mg per week e.g. results in lower total T than you would normally produce. It's not obvious what would happen if they didn't shut down natural T production during the study. Along the same lines unlike in this study we probably shut down some but not all of our T depending on dose of T injected.
While this is true your talking about 60-75 yr old healthy untrained men. You will not see that in 40-50 yr olds who are healthy and training as their livers are more efficient.
which is what I meant by older men. (by the way is a large portion of the members here such as guys who train and are on TRT.)
Yes I understand that endogenous testosterone was shut down. Which is exactly what happens when you run a cycle. Again that was stated to show what happens when 50-600mg a wk are used. No one here uses 25mg a wk. There are guys here who use 50mg wk(100mg Every 2 wks) on TRT and they will tell you it's a fact that natural production will shut down at that level.It's also a fact that any level above that will shut you down. Although yes this was not caused by the feed back of this particular test as endogenous testosterone was shut down. But you need to understand this shows what will happen from negative feedback. Those who are experienced understand what I'm pointing out. The doses people here use 50-600wk. Again no one here uses 25mg a wk which is less than the normal male produces in 1 wk.
I think my main point is that we can expect much higher T levels in our blood tests and that these values should be interpreted as minimum expected levels. First, these values were measure 7 days after injection. That's at least one half-life of test E and so values could be up to 2x higher. Second these values are with total shutdown. Lots of guys think any exogenous test will cause complete shutdown - that's not true - shutdown starts with exogenous test but the amount of shutdown depends on both the dose and the person. Bottom line is that T levels of 2000+ at 300/week should be common
There again we have the data from guys who are on trt are cruising at higher levels(300mgs wk) and there levels are normally below 2000 and closer to the data in the study. .
Terephthalic Pt...Dayum. Look at that shit. 300mg doubles and 600mg quadruples baseline total test, and 2x and 5x free test respectively. I'm thinking I might not go above 300mg of test in my future cycles.
Very interesting read. Thanks for digging that up. No bro-science in that report!
+1
Wow. The low dosage, 25 & 50 mg per week sucked the life out of the subjects. That is a good study bro. Thanks for sharing. +1
Awesome post man I've always wondered about this +1
You know Mac I think a lot of guys have wondered. If you read the study you have an idea of what your baseline should be. What you SHBG should be, what your Free Test should be, etc. Gives you an idea where you fall. If an UGL is overdosed or underdosed as all the testing was done with Human Grade Testosterone which we know was dosed correct.
Buildbigger86Mega, Thank you dropping this knowledge on me. This is interesting and great. i get blood work done like twice a year so i have wondered/ been very interested in the actual breakdown of milligram dosage and here it is!!!!
Very much appreciated my friend. For sure plus 1 from me!!
Your welcome, now you will know. Go to the link and read the whole thing it's pretty interesting.
Nice reference to check/compare the potency of the test u buy. +1
Exactly snuka. Your on here a lot like me. How many times you see a guy post labs doing 250mg wk and his blood is 1200 and some one says its low. The thing is these #'s are based on HGL so you can compare your UGL and see if it's over dosed or under dosed.
Or you'll see something where dose is +500mg/wk and someone will say its low too and it's just fine. The free test values are also interesting, not only because this is what builds muscle but I suppose if you use masteron or proviron, it might indicate how potent they are as well in terms of increasing free test.
Exactly. One thing I have learned is that if your control estradiol through out your cycle your free test will be high. Period. Another thing that comes into play with that is the SHBG numbers which the study shows. Go check it out. There's a lot of quality info in that report. Such as guys that post up base #'s before a cycle and are in the 500's but feel it's to low which it really is not.
Good stuff. That's why I'm on here alot too. These tidbits and nuances are invaluable. Will def. look into the report for leisure reading.