posted Tue, 07/03/2012 - 15:57
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+ 2 Debate (Why Tren and Deca together is a no no)
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My trainer and I were debating this and I want to bring it home fellas! I am hoping to get a concise and scientific reason why running these two 19nor's is stupid. I just don't have all the proper info to defend my position accurately. Thanks in advance to all my Eroidian brothers!
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Nic read
great info. Thank you for the post bro
Researched couple of articles and here are the highlights with the links
1. Trenbolone is highly suppressive of testosterone production when present in the system even at low levels. Since normal male estrogen levels are provided via aromatization of testosterone, testosterone production is highly suppressed in a trenbolone cycle and estrogen levels fall below normal. This typically yields problems with mood, libido, and/or the joints. We all know about DECA Dick. Double wammy against libido.
2.Waste of money as Deca does not act synergistically with trenbolone: a greater effect cannot be achieved by adding them than can be achieved with trenbolone alone at a sufficient dose. Test,Anadrol,Dianabol yes synergist. Deca,EQ,Anavar, no
3.It will take forever to recover your Natty test production
Another point in the above articles are that trenbolone myths include claims of progestagenic activity – veterinary studies show this is not the case – and supposedly sharing similarities with nandrolone due to the shared feature of lacking a 19-methyl group. However, the latter is invalid reasoning, and practice does not show it to be the case with regard to adverse traits specific to nandrolone.Quote
"I do not consider trenbolone to be capable of causing or aggravating gynecomastia. I do not know of a single case where the source of trenbolone was Parabolan (back when it was available), Finaplix H, or Component T-H. The problem appears to occur only when the source is an underground lab or the home preparation is made from powder from a black-market supplier. Since trenbolone’s wholesale price direct from a manufacturer is much higher than that of most anabolic steroids, it shouldn’t be surprising that substitution or partial substitutiion would often occur with underground products. Additionally, it might be that some have mistakenly made preparations from Finaplix S, which definitely would be capable of causing gyno, as that product includes estradiol benzoate as an ingredient.
Well in my experience tren ABSOLUTELY has progestagenic activity and while it might not directly cause gyno, it will definitely amplify negative estrogenic sides and increase susceptibility to gyno in those individuals sensitive to it. I don't care what your veterinary studies show, human and animal physiology is not the same!
I am a real world example with bloods to prove that gyno is a danger of tren. Not only can the increased progesterone affect you on cycle, components of the compound can remain in your system for months (up to 8 is what I read) and causes hormonal interactions and side effects for that after discontinuing the compound. I ran a tren prohormone a few years ago before doing my research. About 4 months later I took the plunge and started my first test cycle. Test E only 500mg/wk, aro 12.5 eod, and around week 5 or 6 I started getting painful puff nips and hard lumps. Figured it must have been elevated e2 so I increased Aro to 25mg/day which made me feel like shit (crashed estrogen) but did nothing to halt the painful gyno progression. I went and got bloods about a week later, test was >1500 and E2 was a perfect 28, yet my nips were killing me. I did some reading and then it hit me that I had ran that PH and might have elevated Progesterone. Got some Prami and what do you know within days all sides subsided.
I realize this is an old thread, but I found the advice to be potentially dangerous so thought it prudent to provide my experience.
Not sure where you were going with the point about tren suppressing testosterone leading to low estrogen levels or what your point was there .... You should always be running a test base anyways so this shouldn't be an issue....
you obviously missed some pnts in that post .. not to mention that gyno resulting from tren is prolactin based not estrogen based ...
GearofWarYeah these dudes are all going to be leaking from their nips pretty soon as well as never feeling like having relations with a woman ever again either. GET YOUR DOPAMINE AGONISTS TOGETHER MEN.
I'm dying to hear Treads take on this! Where u at big Brudda?
Look at Odin's response below yours, It's a quote from a pm with Tread.
That's why I'm a dumbass, lol. Thanks Gfit
Your no dumbass brother... ive been watching this thread and had no need to jump in! everything you brought to the table here is spot on good info +3 from me keep bringing it bro!
RE/ 2 19nors why try to control 2 pitbulls when just 1 has the ability to fuck you up?
Thank you sir! Lol, agreed on the pit bull analogy!
I compare each compound to a certain dog breed ... var being the poodle etc,etc, etc.
Nice! So what is Masteron? Primo? Deca? In curious? Lol
Regarding the idea that two 19-nor's would fight for the same receptors: my understanding is that there's only one kind of receptor AAS can bind to and those are androgen receptors, which means that no matter what two or three or whatever number of substances you're running, they'll always be competing for the same receptors.
That's true but not entirely accurate. They all bind to the same receptors BUT, some bind faster than others and some bind differently. The compounds that bind quicker, will win the fight for the receptor. In the case of Tren Vs Deca, tren will win the fight, hence losing or wasting deca and all you are left with is a boat load of prolactin. Do a google search on any steroid profile, one of the first things mentioned is that drugs RBA (relative binding affinity). All are different
I didn't know that. What happens when you mix something more conventional then, like Tren and Test?
Tren wins which is why low test (just enough to keep your libido in tact) and high tren yeilds better gains. HOWEVER, this is not something for the novice. If you don't have a blueprint of your body and how it responds to tren already, don't try this! But if you're a tren whore already, give it a shot at about 200/wk of test (trt dose) and 400 tren. Tren has a much better binding affinity than test so you have a lot of free floating test that has nowhere to go. Same would be the case with deca. But thats a double prolactin whammy. I have heard of dicks staying limp long after this cycle (tren/deca). Bro science? Maybe, but I wouldn't run the risk. I love my dick
Not ready for Tren yet, but thans for the advice.
No problem. There are vets out there that will say my theory is absolute bro science and a myth. My suggestion, research the compounds and how they work on a cellular level and how the react together. You'll be able to determine what's best from there.
WithdrawlYour theory is one I believe in especially with newbies to tren (low test with higher tren). However, there are guys like me that can take a lot of test with lots of tren and have no issues and see better gains when bulkiing than when I do low test. But most people get bad sides from tren and I really do believe if you use low test you'll reduce those sides greatly. I just so happen to be a lucky one and one that responds better to high test and tren together with no problems. I think a first timer should use low test like you said Nitti and then later on after more experience see what happens when the test dose is increased..
Here is what Tread PM'd me with for another prospective:
Well a lot of the higher ups do it but a 19 of course stimulates prolactin at the pituaitary gland and then it is much more suppressive to the HPTA when compared to test, particularly tren but even deca quite suppressive. The only way I would even consider it is to half dose each given the negative stimulation is at least controlled via total mg's in drugs. With running test you hit the pituitary with the negative feedback loop in LH but running 19's you hit it 2 directions given its that and the prolactin overage from the pituitary. That loop in action really knocks the HPTA in the dirt. So yes, if someone is dead set then its half dose on each for me and a healthy dose on the caber every 3 days and AI protocol in the mix letro on hand. Double whammy 2 directions of gyno possible in that scenario.
tread-mLet me add I went on to say later, I have never really understood the deca/tren combo anyway. EQ/tren with your test is likely going to satisfy the gaol you had anyway and do a bang up job of it without the dual 19's.
Yes sir! That is my current cycle, plus the HGH/T4. Just ordered Thymosin Beta 4 to help with the tendons! Yeah shoulda done it earlier but didn't know about it til recently. Just gotta control the beast til it gets a chance to work! LOL ;-P
Exactly!
Right when I think I know some shit Tread always makes me feel so damn RETARDED! In leymans terms it can be done but WHY RISK IT Lmao
Thanks to all of you fellas! I think I have my argument set for tomorrow. If I am correct, the reason for not running the two together is a two fold answer. One is that they compete for the same receptors and therefore waste the effects and the gesr. Second is the elevation of prolactin from their combo use.
I ran both together back in the day. And no test, lol. I didn't know any better. I would buy whatever the douchebag in the gym had. He didn't tell me anything useful. I didn't suffer the horrible prolactin related sides like you'd think. Probably because one or both the deca /tren were bunk tho. It's not a good idea because number one it's counter productive. Deca is going to bloat you badly, tren will harden u up. If you want to run nandrolone with tren why not NPP? Second reason, they are both 19-noretestosterones, they'll compete for the same receptors. Over saturation=wasted gear! Number 3, you are running the risk of nasty prolactin sides. Yeah, sure you can run caber or letro but why bother even attempting to run the two together? Why not a 19-nor and a DHT? How about tren and mast a or deca and mast e? With test of course.
So the reason is more logistic than sexual side effect driven? I thought they would cause ED if ran together without caber. He wants a reason that would happen. This is why I have you guys. Thanks
Sexual sides are a definite danger becvause of the elevated prolactin. But even if u get that under control with caber, the two compounds are still competeing over the same receptors. One of them is being wasted
I just finished my cycle test e 750Mg wk decca 500 wk and tren ace 100Mg ed.. I fucking loved it look lean with a very thick mass look.. But everyone is different and so is their bodies.. Makes some people have serious issues.. So each their own
sean84Couldn't of said it better. Everybody reacts different to different things and on many different levels in some cases
With or without caber?
I didn't need no caber.. My Dick is a champ.. Never had ed. And my balls really never shrink
There was just a post on this the other day, but unfortunately I can't find it in my track. Its not as much that they are both 19nor's as they are not synergistic. They don't compliment each other. I found this out "after" running the combo in the first EBC! Duh!!! This time I'm running EQ with the Tren, it is very similar to Deca but more synergistic with the Tren.
Well I am just finishing a test e 750mg, eq 600 mg and tren e at 400-500 mg a week, I liked this cycle a lot. Def the most vascular I have ever been and hardest pumps ever! I Did start to get prolactin problems and gyno which letro and caber took care of almost immediately. All in all it was a good cycle except for the painful nipples in middle of cycle which I had to fix but got ahold of. Stopped tren a week ago, now tapering my eq and test down. Then pct clomid hcg and nolva on hand for that.
So....Is he right then? Is there no real reason why u shouldn't run the two? Ever since I have been a member and read posts in the forums, dudes get bashed for proposing cycles with these two compounds. I was under the impression running them together would give you ED.
you can run them both at the same time, there is no reason why not
biggerthanyouSide effects of 19 nors are high not to mention 2 of them. Plus you would be shut down so hard and take a long time to recover unlesssss ur on trt lol im sure viking perses tread goth or some1 of the like will break us off with some scientific reasoning that will blow our fuckin minds
What little I had as ammo was that running two 19nors is a no no without the use of caber. His point was that the androgenic/anabolic ratios is what matters to erectile dysfunction.
biggerthanyouThat def makes sense lol i dont ever run tren wirhout caber yet i never run caber with nandrolone...weird lol