+ 2 Nandrolone and trenbolone ratios
I'd like to bring a topic to the table for discussion...so everyone talks about running test lower than tren at roughly a 1:2 ratio. I've ran it both ways and I agree I have far less sides with lower test. It also makes sense that you want more tren to be a or to occupy the ar than test due to its extreme anabolic ratio in comparison with test. So the other day I was talking to a good friend of mine and we got into cycle structure a little bit and he says he swears by running his test at 300 and his deca at 500...far less issues, libido intact, no prolactin issues(obviously proper ancillary use is present here). After thinking about it for a bit it seemed to make sense. Less test would mean less e2 conversion, th lower the e2 the lower the chances of prolactin related sides. So, being that tren and nandro are structurally similar, both from the 19-nor group, and both exhibit some of the same physiological side effects, prolactin, libido etc, where are we getting this idea that test must be ran 2:1 over nandrolone? Nandrolone is more anabolic than test so it makes sense to me, that we would want it as the majority hormone occupying the ar for maximum results. The more test present raises the probability that there will be a higher conversion rate to estro which in turn would cause there to be more of an issue with prolactin. HAVE WE ALL FALLEN VICTIM TO BRO SCIENCE??? I'd like to hear everyone's opinion with some factual evidence backing it up. And obviously I would especially like to hear from those that have replicated cycles using nandrolone with both ratios 1:2 with test and 2:1 with test
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It seems this discussion has more questions than answers. The tren-dick,deca-dick problem appears to be so different from person to person. The test to 19 nor ratio is best kept with the test as low as possible so the e2 conversion is minimized without causing the sexual sides. But is not the sexual sides exasperated by the extra e2? Wow tricky dance to do! I can see why the 19 nors is only for the experienced user!
Liquidzim currently wrapping up my test/deca cycle as I write this and i tried the lower test higher deca at the beginning.
by week 4 i COULDNT hold an erection and cumming seemed like it would take forever
injected hefty doses of prop while i readjusted to a 2:1 test, deca and the past 10 weeks were nothing like the beginning
i wanna nail everything, morning wood , no loss of erections at all.
could be user dependant but ill never run deca or npp higher again
btw .5mg caber e3d from start, once i bumped test aromasin 12.5 eod
ill be transitioning into a low test moderate tren in a few weeks and the general consensus is that it wont be the nightmare i experienced a few weeks back
hope that helps someone
Week four would be slightly early for deca to have built up that much in your system...did you kick with prop? If its the one you kick started with dbol that's in your forum you could have had estro issues from the jump. How much test were you running? When did you start your ai?
My dick turns off by week 2 on deca. it's possible
BigBmajI had it happen once really quicky as well. I couldn't believe it happened so fast. It wasn't broken but seriously impared within ten days.
Anonright on point
I think over time due to all the fucked up deca cycles people developed the 2:1 theory.. think about how many people you see on here running tren and deca with NOOOO mention of caber or pram
Awesome I'm glad to have your opinion on this. My thought is people are using extra test just to create a better balance from the extra estro that nandrolone brings. Now I think mast or provi still important for dht libido support in any 19-nor cycle since dhn doesn't bind well to the ar
More of this stuff guys! This is what makes this the best website. Level up all your posts are amazing. J223, I always learn from you! This is the type of debate that gets my juices flowing!
I ran a blast with 600mg of npp and 250mg test.Prior to this,the maximum weight I ever attained was 217lbs.I was going to run it for 12 weeks.I started at 198lbs and after 6 weeks I was at about 222lbs.I started front loading tren e at week 6 to get off the npp.At the end of week 8 I dropped the npp.I was at 228lbs.I ran 600mgs of tren e and 250mg of test until the end of week 14.I ended up at 230lbs.After about a month and a half of cruising,I was sitting at 212lbs and leaner than when I started.I had no deca dick problems.I was taking .5mg of caber twice a week and 15mg of aromasin 3 times a week.I used hcg 2 times a week at 250iu each.Everyone is different and I would not recommend it to anyone,but it worked well for me.If I try it again I won't go over 500mg of npp a week.
It is possible...did you happen to run proviron with it?
No I didn't.I seem to react differently to 19 nors than most people.On tren e I don't start getting sides until about week 8.I get shortness of breath.At week 10 trensomnia starts kicking in.I'll get night sweats 3 or 4 times the whole 12 week blast.And the sweating isn't intense like some people get.I get a little sweaty on my upper chest/neck area and forehead.
Did you run any bloodwork?
No i did not.The nearest lab to me is over 200 miles away in a different state.I didn't want to use my private doctor.I keep checking privatemdlabs for a location in my state.
Wow.Just checked privatemd and there is one in my state now!
Next time you run that cycle please get panels run and keep us posted
So there is a neuropeptide called substance p that prevents progesterone from converting into all the things that cause side effects that in going to do some more research. Interestingly enough I think that progesterone levels could have a desensitization effect on thyroid hormone exhibiting hypothyroid issues....one issue of hypothyroid is loss of libido
Progesterone is good. If you prevent the conversion of progesterone you would indirectly reduce your testosterone levels.
Progesterone converts to a hormone that converts to testosterone.
People mistake progesterone and think it's bad. It's actually a great hormone and is an estrogen regulator. A lot of people think progesterone itself is bad because it is a progestin. Tren and deca are progestins but they are not like progesterone at all in terms of biological effects. Progesterone is a very important hormone.
The reason deca dick happens is because nandrolone naturally decreases sex drive. Thats a common side effect from the drug itself. Has nothing to do with estrogen, prolactin or anything else but the drug itself causes that. But YES prolactin and estrogen levels will get high while on deca which can also cause libido issues. Also since it severely shuts down testosterone, test levels will go down, which is another reason why libido can go down if no test is taken alongside. The amount of testosterone required to be taken with deca is debatable because really the issue is having the right balance of testosterone, estrogen and low prolactin.
Aight brotha lets narrow this done to what we can agree on...
1. Excess progesterone causes TH desensitization
2. Progesterone's by products can raise cortisol levels
3. Progesterone doesn't convert to estro via the same mechanism as test does
4. Positive correlation between progesterone levels and shbg
5. Progesterone inhibits prolactin as long as it doesn't convert into any of its by products
Ill work on a little research and weite it up. I guess we aren't agreeing on much.
What mechanism decreases sex drive? Sry short response driving atm
many. to name a few:
1 - nandrolone has a side effect of decreased libido. thats a common side from the hormone itself
2 - estrogen levels get whacky on deca
3 - prolactin
4 - testosterone levels tend to decline while taking deca alone due to severe suppression
5 - thyroid levels can also be affected
I'm sure there are other reasons, but thats what I know right now off the bat
And I understand progesteone converts to test, but being that we administer exo test we don't need to rely on this regulation
sex drive isn't solely dependent on testosterone levels. for example FSH and LH levels along with free test vs total test and SHBG all have a role as well
I think we are relatively close to bein on the same page here...give me 10 mins to get home and ill be back with you
I think so too. Though progesterone is one of the less understood hormones in men. Thumbs up for the post by the way, I love topics like this.
Does this have anything to do with why I always need to run T3 with Tren otherwise I can't even get out of bed? I don't need T3 with Deca, however.
I would assume partly to this as well as parly because tren is so strong. I've found the more I raise my doses the more lethargy comes with it, regardless of the compound
I am embarrassed to say that in my earlier years....the 90's i had run Deca only cycles just like the books at that time used to preach as a good option since there is no estro conversion and shit. So in my early 20's even rock hard as I was and ready to go, eventually after 16 weeks the best I could get was a limpy! So I do not subscribe too much to the theory that high test is the culprit or catalyst to deca dick. If you have your ancillaries in place (caber, provi and the best AI that works for you), you should have no problem. The question is how much of those ancillaries change with the ratios of deca to test? Maybe caber should be upped and provi introduced to the cycle as a staple for sexual appetite. I am currently on a Deca cycle at 2:1 test to deca running all that I have mentioned above and have had no problems, except being hard all the time. I feel 25 again lol!
When it comes to Tren lets not forget that it is 500:500 compared to test at 100. It is 5 times more potent!
You just triggered a thought...deca doesn't convert directly to estrogen, it converts to progesterone. Progesterone converts to estro but not in the same pathway as test converts to estro...so it isn't converted by aromatase. Now I don't know the conversion of e1 to e2. I know e2 exhibits much greater power in regards to "bioavailability" for lack of a better term; it has a much greater effect. Interestingly enough blood tests look for estrodial and not e1 right? So is it possible that progesteone is converted to e1(or another form of estrogen) that we haven't previously payed attention to and that is what is causing the issue? In either case I think it's going to lead me back to the theory the progesterone is the main culprit. The question is how do we stop the conversion o progesterone to estrogen?
Other that being 19-nors, are the compounds really similar? I don't know and I haven't seen any rigorous academic literature that compares them.
This is an wonderful topic. Bro science demands that we use a high enough amount of test to quash the deca sides like deca dick. For me, that has been 2:1 Test : Deca. The latest thinking with Tren, however, is that we really only need at TRT dose of test when running a tren cycle since Tren binds so strong to the receptor sites, the test converts to an unusually high amount of estrogen and really contributes very little. We just need an amount of test to keep us healthy . . .
Nandrolone is just not as strong as tren and I think leaves the free test to do some of its anabolic magic. I have run Test : Deca - 1:1 and besides the ED, libido is just plain dead as well, which I guess is just fine under the circumstances.
I have never seen any scholarly articles on this whatsoever!!!
Trenbolone is a derivative of nandrolone so thats hy in considering then somewhat similar...especially in this case because in only refering to their sexual side effects. Nandrolone's binding affinity is only reduced in comparison to testosterone after it has undergone 5-alpha reduction
THIS!!!!
is why i love this fucking website
FUCK the norm, lets question it all, for the betterment of this society!
good post Levelup, will be watching intensively
bigun^^^ this!!! You guys make my inner nerd a very happy camper
aylmejorI ran nandro at 1g and had test at 125. I was still having sex, felt normal. I think it's individual. Bro science to an extent, but some guys still seem to do better with test higher.
AnonYa bro I've never seen actual science proving the 2:1 ratio for Test n Deca. I have run lots of Deca stacks. I can honestly tell you that If I don't have a good dose of test I'm fucked. Whether it's 2:1 or a little less I have to run a higher dose of Test or libido tanks after 8-10 wks. And this is with caber n AI. I'm right there with you on this one though bro I've never seen one thing scientifically that explains this. Great topic
That's interesting bc I would have pegged the libido issues as bein related to estro or progesterone sides. I would really like to know what the mechanism is that's responsible for the issues