+ 29 Thyroid Medications
Recently I'm noticing more and more cycles including T3 / T4 as a routine part of a cutting cycle. It's not my intention to lecture or tell anyone not to make their own decisions, but what I would like to do is share with you all some personal experience I have in that area. Some of you may have heard my story before, but I'd like to give you a little more information.
In my teens and twenties, my life revolved around martial arts. I started at the age of 5, and at the age of 20 I represented my country and was honoured to do so. At the time when I was at university, it was a delicate balancing act between study and a heavy training regime. I never complained about the work, I loved the sport. What I didn't enjoy was making weight categories through extensive diet and cardio.
I was coached by what I can only refer to as a fitness fanatic. The sort of guy that doesn't stand still, walks around at 6-7% BF who never ate any crap whatsoever. I, however, always liked my food and probably averaged 12-14%BF at this point in time. I competed at a number of different weights in my career, but my main level was the 95KG class (210lbs approx.). I typically weighed in at 220-230lbs outside of competition, and I'll be honest, I HATED dropping weight. Cardio was never my love, and dropping 10-20lbs before a competition used to have a huge negative impact on me. It was, however, the weight I was best suited to compete at, results proved that fact.
So, I looked into "chemical assistance". At the time I was doing my final year of a biochemistry degree and had spent a year out in industry on placement year and had learnt a lot about endocrine medications as a result of the environment I worked in. I made the decision to cut a few corners and run levothyroxine (T4). It was cheap, effective and didn't seem too risky at the time. This was just before my 22nd birthday.
Worked beautifully! I didn't need 8 weeks of suffering before a competition, I now needed 4 just by running low doses of T4, (around 50mcg typically), and I could pretty much eat as I always did, clean but not obsessively clean. This continued to be the way I handled the situation until I was 28. No big doses, no long runs, nothing stupid. I continued my career into research science, so I knew what I was doing with drug application, or so I thought.
At 28, I won a prestigious competition, the highlight of my martial arts career. Unfortunately it was also my last competition of any significance. As I'd got older, I'd gained more muscle, I was naturally bigger and still battling for 95kg's, which was by now probably a weight category I had no right to hit. In order to get there, I was having to come in really lean, I'm talking 6% ish. Not ideal for the sport, and not ideal for your health. After the tournament, several weeks after stopping T4, I was continuing to lose weight. I increased what I ate, I dropped my cardio back significantly, weight continued to drop. 3 months after this tournament, I was 8KG's under my competitive weight and had lost a lot of muscle. My hands were shakey, I had a constant mild headache, shortness of breath and for the first time in my life my mood was very unpredictable. I went to the doc for the first time in about 7 years.
He took blood and noticed my resting heart rate was 105BPM. 3 months ago I was a fit international standard athlete, how could that be? It was because my thyroid was overactive. The typical range of "nomal" T4 is viewed as 11-22 here in the UK. Mine sat at 143. I was put onto a drug called carbimazole and referred to an Endo. We discussed the situation, and I openly and honestly explained my thyroxine use. I was lucky enough to be treated by a well known endo, who informed me I was not the only athlete he had seen in this situation. Things went downhill quite rapidly now, my weight continued to drop, I looked like a heroin addict to be quite honest. I struggled at work,. I'm sure people thought I was taking drugs. Eventually the carbimazole got me back to a eurythroid state, but I still felt like utter crap. I had developed a heart murmur, which wouldn't go back to normal which eventually resulted in having my heart stopped and restarted (not something I recommend, especially when you've got a 3 month old child). Eventually I had a total thyroidectomy at the age of 30 and I now take T4 for the rest of my life.
I'm ok now, but there's a few things that don't go away and I never feel particularly great. I still overheat really easily, (I walk around in a T shirt in winter), and I have the inconvenience of blood tests and daily medication. Whenever anything goes wrong with my health, the doctors response is immediately endocrinology related as a result. It still has a big impact on my life.
A long read, for which I apologise, but if it makes one person avoid what I had, it was worthwhile. Cardio and diet might seem like too much hard work, but I promise you do not want thyrotoxicosis.
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I'm glad i read this. I was thinking about t4 and you just saved me from doing a possible mistake. Thx for your story. I hope everyone reads this.
AnonSo why are you not running it? Every person who runs T4 will not have a outcome such as the one described above.
If there is a chance that could happen.... I'm good.
Great post and very interesting read mate. Topic doesn't get enough attention IMO, well worth a bump
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Thanks for bumping this m.k. I have been considering the use of t3/t4 with my hgh…i think i'll hold off
Good to hear that mate ! I believe the reason SDM wrote and shared this info was to hopefully do just that, at least make you think a bit more before you risk causing some problems for yourself that can't be reversed.
Absolutely. Physically thyrotoxicosis really isn't fun, but it also has a huge effect on your psychological welfare. It's iften medically confused with bipolar symptoms. I'm left with some irritating symptoms, such as heat intolerance that will never go away.
If one person avoids what I went through, I'm glad I went to the trouble of writing it.
I just got my t4 in the mail today to run with my gh. This makes you think twice about it for sure.
I recently discovered 2 new side affects of being on too much thyroid meds; dizziness & low blood sugar....regulating thyroid meds is sorta like trying to fine tune a transistor radio....You gotta listen very carefully to yr body and your own intuitive compass because yr labs can say everything is status quo but yr body is clearly saying something else...
Very true. I'm borderline diabetic nowadays if my thyroid creeps up to near the top of the normal range. Amazing how much is affected by such a small little gland.
i have graves disease hyperthyroidism went undiagnosed for many years i was a complete wreck emotionally and physically for years until my general practice doctor ordered some bloods and found out about my condition... its been a rollercoaster that i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. not to be toyed with. the thyroid is responsible for pretty much every aspect of your metabolism and if it isnt working properly you are fucked in a major way. great post and hopefully folks will just cut the carbs and get on the stairmaster for fucks sake.
RustyhookerI read this post yet again and am glad its up here. Wish it was a stickie.
Thyroid wasn't as common on this board til a whore source wanting to move up ranks gave away few thousand tabs to anyone with a pulse. Folks seem to forget that most those dealers are no more than backstreet crack movers with a computer. They give two shits about your health. When you're lethargic and burnt, you'll return for more thyroid tabs. No difference whatsoever than dude diwn the street giving you a free bump.
Not sure it's sticky material, I'll leave that up to others to decide. Merely my experience, nothing more, nothing less.
Personally I think a source giving away thyroid meds should be out of here, I wouldn't do business with them. Problem is T4 is great business. I used to work for one of the biggest levothyroxine manufacturers, the mark up on it is ridiculous, you're talking 95% profit margin.
Holy shit!.......... excellent post, i hope someone learns from this i sincerely do!
From our regular convos and interactions you know full well were i stand regarding ANY thyroid manipulation brother...... complete and total NO- NO...... i even have fierce rows with Suze at home because she still persists in running Clen when on serious cutting sessions, i think i am eventually winning the battle with her but she is so fkn head strong i swear it will take a bad effect to finally sway her off the shit. +3
You and I sing from the same hymn sheet on this, always have. Tell Suze I've got a scolding look on my face ;)
Tren crashes my T3 and if I don't supplement, I have a hard time even getting out of bed in the morning, but it's not a diet drug and horror stories like yours are gonna become more common. GH does a way better job in conditioning than T3 ever could anyways. T3 is cheap, though, and HGH, isn't.
I hear you, but how much in terms if numbers? Enough to really need to supplement?
Mine does takes a small dip, but considering I only run short tren blasts (8 weeks ish), it doesn't warrant adjustment. By the time you've balanced it out by supplementing T3, you're pretty much wrapping up the cycle.
I don't run Tren anymore more than 8 weeks either. After week 3-4, I'm feeling it pretty bad, and I don't have my last Tren run blood test handy but it was bad enough for my doctor to script Cytomel 25 mcg tabs. Made all the difference in the world really. I run it when I start getting really lethargic until a few weeks after the Tren run. Those brief uses of it have never (yet) compromised my normal Thyroid function.
Great post and appropriate bump. It seems like too many idiots feel like the go to diet is T3, clen and just for good measure DNP. They act like they're taking an OTC supplement. They even brag about it. No research, no thought into it, just "I need to get shredded" and they jump right on the idiot train. We joke about natural selection, but it has some truth to it. If you can't even take the time to thoroughly research the compounds you are considering taking, then I'm not sure you don't deserve the consequences. Anything worthwhile in this world takes hard work. Diet, exercise, self-control, etc. I hope someone will at least take the time to reconsider their path.
Again, great work Catalyst. +1
You said it right there, unfortunately no body want to work for anything these days. Always looking for a hand out. I'm grateful I had parents that instilled work ethic in me.
I literally say that each and every day.
I know. I can't tell you how many times I tell my Dad, you know you were right. He just gets this grin on his face, lol.
Seems to be becoming more and more common again, hence the bump. I promise anyone if they went through what I did they'd never touch thyroxine. These days I rarely see the necessity even at the highest levels of competitive BB'ing. There's other safer ways.
Wow! How ironic that you wanted to try T4 and now you are on it for life. The thyroid is not something to be messed with. It's bad enough what we are altering with injectables and orals, why do we feel the need to add more on top of that? I've read about T3, T4, Clen. I'll just stick with diet and cardio. Is it worth looking good in our 20's and 30's only to give up your health later in life? Thanks for the bump, and sharing your unfortunate experience. +1
Absolutely, ironic indeed. Old school diet and cardio works for me. If I can get to where I am at the moment for comp prep (under 9% bf), then that's good enough for me.
Bumping this for visibility. Had a few pm's asking about T3 and T4 supplementation recently so deemed appropriate to Bump.
Excellent and important post! +1
I'd never heard of anything this bad coming from t3.. Sounds like you had it rough.. ahhh this may be my last time using t3.. I don't see any need to gamble with something like that. Thank you for posting your experience
And please make this a sticky for future members
He said he was using T4 which converts to T3 which you shouldn't use that either...im on thyroid meds from a dr and believe me when yr thyroid goes outta whack its def no fun!
I know he meant t4.. I should have reworded that but either one could screw up your thyroid =[
Absolutely correct. Over here in the uk they only replace T4 when you've had a thyroidectomy. In the USA they also use T3. With the NHS over here it's all about the cost.
I can't decide whether to taper off t3 or drop this cold turkey.. I was always under the impression taper was the best
100% taper it off.
Thought so.. thank you for the advice =D
Definitely not fun, and I'm sorry to hear you've had problems too. For me the physical stuff was handled well by docs etc, what they don't tell you about are the psychological aspects, mood swings, irritability etc.
i thought i was bi polar and psychotic growing up but it was my thyroid. unbelievable the mental anguish i went through from graves disease... i was actually pretty happy that it was a physical thing wrong with me lol i was like YES does this mean im not insane!!!!:)
In the UK the first thing protocol suggests they test if they see bipolar type symptoms is thyroid function. Definitely has a big psychological effect, changed my personality immensely.
Thanks for the post SDM
Yeah I naturally have hyperthyroid. It's borderline so it is not bad enough to need to do anything about it. I keep it monitored to make sure my tsh isn't going down. What is weird is my levels are within range while I am on cycle.
I've taken t3 before and didn't notice anything all it did was make me lose weight and muscle and made my low tsh go even lower. It went completely back to normal according to the tests I got 2 months later.
my normal tsh is 0.034 a little low but that's normal for me my t4 and t3 levels are always upper end but not too high or too low. I won't ever take that stuff again after learning more about it. To be honest I only took it cause i got it for free from some promo and thought it would help me cut. Well it did but I also lost like 30lbs including a good amount of muscle. I'd be 235 or higher right now if I didn't lose all my damn muscle from that trash. It's my fault for taking thyroid while already having hyperthyroid.
anyways, question to SDM
Do you know why your thyroid went into overdrive even after quitting t4? Is it possible your TSH was suppressed for so long that your body thought it should have high t4 and t3? It's pretty confusing how the thyroid works because it really just one hormone goes up and one goes down. Maybe you had suppressed tsh for so long you had a rebound of tsh and resulted in massive level increase in thyroid hormones, that's my guess at least. Did you taper down the dose?
Just trying to figure out the mechanism in which your thyroid went through to do that
Interesting question. The theory of some endos is continued suppression of tsh can just make it go crazy. Effectively you create continued TSH suppression whilst taking exo t4, which when stopped makes the TSH level raise and overcompensate. A good example of this is there are numerous studies of hyperthyroidism for long term cannabis users. I talked at length with my endo about this subject and apparently he sees a lot of patients who used cannabis for years, stopped, then developed thyrotoxicosis. When you consider 4-6 week runs were all I took, it's surprising this can happen.
The problem with thyroid issues is that we still don't understand them very well. Two people with exactly the same symptoms need two totally different treatment protocols. The other issue is the drugs we use to control things like thyrotoxicosis. Things like carbimazole are HORRIBLE molecules. I design drugs for a living, I'd be ashamed of making something as messy as that. It works, but does untold damage elsewhere.
what do you think about Naturethroid? i have a zero TSH and low T4 and normal T3 i just went to a new dr who gave me an ultra sound on my thyroid gland and ran a full panel on thyroid alone like anti-thyroid globulin, T3 uptake, reverse t3 etc.
The doctor has me on 270 mg of nature thyroid, it takes that much to get me to feel normal, I've been on it for just over a year. Wish I'd been on it for the last 25 years. To me it has more effect than my weekly test shot.
Not used over here due to the NHS and the associated cost. They believe they can solve everything with T4 alone in the UK, may have something to do with the fact that it costs hardly anything to produce......
The basic idea from what I understand is that Naturethroid has T3 and T4. The T3 tends to stop you feeling tired (which lots of people of T4 alone complain of). The research is inconclusive, but I've read lots of testimonials from long term hypothyroidism patients saying it was life changing. In your case, you may not want the extra T3 - You could end up with over active symptoms.
K i agree on adding T3 hyper symptoms are no fun....thank you for yr input
No that makes sense, it sounds like a sort of rebound that you experienced. Too bad it was permanent.
Interesting, I did not know of the studies about long term cannabis and hyperthyroidism.
Unfortunately there aren't much treatment options, other than thyroidectomy and radioactive iodine treatment. Even the partial thyroid removal isn't the best option because sometimes too much gets removed, or not enough. Hopefully a cleaner, less toxic drug will come out that will help lower thyroid activity without a list of sides like carbimzole. I'm glad my tsh has been the same for the past year
Not proven, but the statistics indicate a direct correlation. Interestingly it's also believed that marijuana can help control certain types of hyperthyroidism, (graves disease), once diagnosed. Bizarre when you think could be both a cause and then also used alleviate symptoms.
AnonBeen trying to preach this concept to people for a while now. I do remember mosts ago you mentioned this.. glad you wrote the official story. thanks bro
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkYes, I posted a shortened "pg version" in someone else's post about 6 months ago. J223 and I were chatting thyroids a few weeks back which got me thinking I should post up the "18 version".
Thanks Muta. Your input always appreciated.
So u been using t4 at 50mcg on and off for 6 years and one time u randomly screwed ur self bro. Were u running 50 mcg of t4? What changed?. I'm curious because I run t3 as well and I would hate for that to happen to me .i appreciate u sharing bro
Basically a couple of times per year short 50mcg runs for 6 years. The last time it just didn't go back to normal. In fact it climbed further after I stopped. An unusual endocrine anomaly.
Just be careful. I know you're a sensible lad but I'd hate to see you in the sort of mess I was. Drop me a line if you need to ask me anything XV.