I would first like to lay down some ground rules. Please do not mention any suppliers. This thread is not to promote, nor discredit any suppliers as a whole. All information and debating is welcomed and encouraged - but please keep it respectful. If you are basing your opinion off something you googled and found on another forum, please keep it to yourself as it will not allow the thread to conclude upon new thoughts and conclusions.

exert: We live in a world where more is better. We want to feel, see, touch and live the pain. If we can walk after a workout, it wasn't a good one. If Clen doesn't make our hearts beat at 140bpm resting, its bunk. If you don't do cardio to exhaustion, you aren't training hard enough. Pretty general thoughts, right? These seem to be my gatherings after watching the younger generation Eroids has attracted.. Well, guess what. If you can't walk after training - you probably just overtrained. If your heart is beating at 140bpm, the clen is probably overdosed. If you push your body to cardio exhaustion, you just negated the whole premise of burning fat or "cardio" itself and put your body into "survival mode." But I would be willing to bet you all have been here.. Took That clen that made your heart race, or made you feel like you were going to puke.. Trained so damn hard you couldn't sit down on the toilette or ran until you started to puke. And the funny thing is, I bet these are some of the most self fulfilling moments you have had with AAS, or the gym.

People can agree to disagree, but I am filled with doubt. Everything I see, I want proof two times over to validate the claim and make me believe its more than some bullshit someone is trying to sell me. I am going to cover some interesting matters regarding the underground world of HGH that I believe very few suppliers could cover, let alone a normal member. You will notice I end a lot of statements with a question mark. Well, that is the whole point of this post - to make you start to use your head and QUESTION things.

Generics I have seen generics making a come back. Some seem to test decent after every 5 kits are bunk. What interests me most is the crippling side effects. at 3-4IU I read about people not being able to feel their hands, terrible joint pain etc. Now what is the cause of these terrible side effects? I run human grade at 8-10IU a day and I've never once had my hands go numb, and my IGF is 1000+. Are these so called "Generics" even HGH, or just a peptide that mimics it. From a supplier standpoint, these "generics" are ALL coming from companies who sell peptides. They change the tops, sell "red tops" "green tops" you name it - but its the same shit. What interests me is, They also offer HGH powder in the raw form for sale, yet, they dont synthesize it themselves. The machines needed to do so are only coming from massive companies. So where is it they're getting this so called HGH power from? and how would it even remain stable in an unlymponized state? Most of them as of recent test at what 8-15 serum level via 10IU injection. So, if you are running 3-4IU a day, your serum level is MAYBE x2 your natural level, yet - you're fully bloated, numb hands, sore joints, and all of a sudden want to sleep 16 hours a night? It doesn't add up. I haven't seen any IGF tests posted on someone who is simply running a generic HGH at a normal daily dosage to see if their day-to-day IGF remains high. So other than sleep, the side effects that have you convinced its real - what are you injecting into your body? They have a full list of peptides that mimic HGH in just about every single aspect, so what makes it any different? The only claims I have seen is people saying their skin is getting tighter even though they're on 2G of Tren/Test/Mast/Var and preaching the potency of the HGH by bragging about their God awful side effects. Give me some delta sleep peptide and 2G of Gear and I bet my skin will get tighter and I'll sleep 14 hours a night too.

Hyges To begin, I believe currently there are 4 different kind of Hygetropin. The original, yellow, brown and green tops. It would be stupid to think there are 4 multi million dollar factories over in China pumping our replica's so where do all these variations come from. At one point Green tops were good, and now they're testing like shit, almost as bad if not worse than a generic. What does make me intrigued about Hyges are, they do in fact show elevated IGF on blood tests, and an abnormally high GH serum. I question the GH serum though. How is it Chinese HGH can test x2 higher than American Grade Pharma, the same stuff we give to AIDS patients and burn victims, but only test at 1/5th the IGF level of the human grade. The 1:1 doesn't add up? Why does the quality of these kits fluctuate so much where there is constant quality control issues where they need testing done. They seemingly can go from showing a 65 on a serum test, to a 7 with the change of a batch

Mass Spec - a mass spec test is not representative of the HGH quality, im sorry- but it isn't. I have seen kits test at 96-97% pure, and on a Serum test while shooting 20IU before the test, they are showing <10. So, the mass spec test says there is GH present, it is overdosed, but a serum test would suggest otherwise. The other concept I don't get is; why is every single Chinese version of HGH a different molecular formula than the dalton standard. Or is it fair to conclude perhaps the only REAL HGH is in fact the dalton standard, and everything else is nothing more than a replica, but never the real thing? Generics cost roughly $85-95 a kit wholesale/bulk, for a 100IU kit. So how is it a pharma pen cost 5 times that, for 1/3rd of the amount? I know its marketed up between the insurance companies/big phrama, but is it realistic to believe REAL HGH can be made by the supplier at a cost of $40-50 a kit/100IU. If you look at the pricing of peptides, this would line up with the bulk pricing on peptides that are very similar. I have a buddy who has a prescription for Novo Pens. Without insurance its a $550 out of pocket charge for a 30IU pen. I can attest to them working in the real world - a good friend of mine has had his son on human grade growth and he showed 2in" growth in height in a 6 month period, granted, his plates aren't closed - but then again, plates can remain open until you're 25 and I see a lot of 22-23 year olds dancing with the ID of 10-15 IU of HGH a day.

Human Grade Marked up, Yes. Damn near impossible to get, Yes. Unrealistic for most people budget wise, absolutely. My main question here is; why does a high dose of human grade growth yield very little side effects. I can attest that my Thyroid is within balance without any T3/T4 even when shooting insane doses. My IGF is 1000+ at 3-4IU a day. But where are the side effects? I would consider anything made by Pfizer as being "real," so why don't my hands go numb? If you think about it, there is only one conclusion to make. There is undoubtedly completely different amino substances/chemicals in the other types of HGH, there is no way around it. Something is inside that powder that is yielding these side effects. I have considered sending in a sample kit of multiple kinds to a buddy whom works at a chemical analysis lab to see if they can determine all the known substances because I think it could truly be an eye opener.

Blood testing I honestly believe the HGH serum test is bullshit and it doesn't not measure "good" growth, rather, it measures there is a substance that mimics HGH present. I believe it is necessary to determine that much, but not the bread and butter. Stick to IGF testing - its the "euthanizing" and "regenerating," we gain from HGH. People need to start caring about their health and what they are injecting into their bodies. Get baseline bloodwork done; an IGF test costs about $60. If you're using HGH the proper way, your probably already have 1-2k invested up front, so this should be the least of your concerns. Stay away from any self medication regarding T3/T4 unless you have bloodwork to prove its suppressed. The reason I question the GH serum testing is due to the incubation stage. If patient A gets blood drawn on Sunday and it is not processed through the lab until Wednesday, would the results differ from Patient B who is using the same HGH, but gets his test processed the next day. Does HGH degenerate? Does it need to be incubated to stay biologically available? Who started these bro-science tests? It used it be people judged test >1500 as being good, but we're now realizing there is a big difference between 2000 and 8000, although both are ">1500" think about it.. What happens when the companies drive the blood samples to the Fed Ex to fly them to the labs (this is how they do it, I asked) temperature fluctuations? mishandling? etc.

My advice pick your poison. There are in fact Chinese GH kits out there for those who don't have the means nor desire to pay $75 a day to shoot human grade, that will increase your IGF. This should be your premise in which you judge good growth, because thats where the shredding and fat burning effects come from. get a baseline blood test done to determine IGF levels; after a month of using your HGH at the desired dosage, go back and get IGF tested again, dont worry about the serum as it is irrelevant IMO. The IGF should be building at this point and should have produced a noticeable jump.

As always, thank you for your time in reading. Share your personal experiences and doubts! If no one questions the system, we will forever be one step behind. And if you know me, I always like to stay One step ahead. I will edit this as I, or other members come up with more thoughts!

-M